Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[CatNewBee]

https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....02.21267156v1

News from Ontario, related to mRNA vaccine induced Myocarditis and Pericarditis in regards to type and intervalls of the doses.

[Zippee]

https://medium.com/swlh/credible-mis...d-700105a12e25


Risch is a long time favorite of the anti-vax and other conspiracy disbelievers - as well as frequent appearances on conspiratorial media and shows. A quick check has found him to have been widely and repeatedly discredited, fact-checked and exposed as so influenced, and who has improperly (to say the least) used his title "Dr." to mislead and misrepresent.

The video on the previous page was linked to and taken from a small, but almost completely conspiratorial page:
https://www.youtube.com/user/reedr6/videos

I realize that all forums on the net have been breached at times, but fortunately here without real effect. I'm honored to follow and occasionally participate in this generally very informative and valuable thread.

If there's a lesson here, it's to use our own good sense and perform due diligence to our best ability.

[davil]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

https://youtu.be/xzVoS-1TIWI

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....02.21267156v1

News from Ontario, related to mRNA vaccine induced Myocarditis and Pericarditis in regards to type and intervalls of the doses.

======================================
EDIT
Added from publication

"Results There were 19,740,741 doses of mRNA vaccines administered and 297 reports of myocarditis/pericarditis meeting our inclusion criteria. "

"Conclusions and Relevance Our results suggest that vaccine product, inter-dose interval and vaccine schedule combinations may play a role in the risk of myocarditis/pericarditis, in addition to age and sex. Certain programmatic strategies could reduce the risk of myocarditis/pericarditis following mRNA vaccines."


From above quotation

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....02.21267156v1


This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice.


Zippee
Re: Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021
https://medium.com/swlh/credible-mis...d-700105a12e25




From Zippee


Same

" I'm pleased to follow and occasionally participate in this generally very informative and valuable thread."

[Exile]

I think the posting of credible research & information about vaccine risk is important, provided it elicits responses (as here) which fairly vets sources and responsibly puts those risks in context. I was actually surprised this was absent in the lengthy and otherwise excellent interview with the epidemiologist from S. Korea Zippee posted upthread, and I've noticed this from other public health officials as well. Any actual or perceived lack of transparency runs the risk of validating vaccine fears based on inaccurate information, all too easy to perpetuate over the internet if left unchallenged. Given the relatively high rates of vaccination in much of the world, most have concluded (but not all obviously) that such risks are outweighed by the greater risk of getting infected and becoming ill (or worse). But attempts by officialdom to ignore or suppress these risks -- no matter how small and regardless of good intentions -- only further sows (often misplaced) distrust in my view.

So while I personally don't often agree with many of the positions posters such as GregK and CatNewBee advance, I find their input valuable precisely because of the educational benefit of the debate which inevitably ensues. It also helps me better understand some of the vaccine hesitancy & resistance that's obviously out there in large numbers, and avoid much of the more superficial stereotyping that is so often resorted to. Imho, it facilitates a more thorough & deeper understanding than conclusions often arrived at from discussions where everyone is singing the same tune, with posters not in sync all too often derided or otherwise discouraged from posting. I find this especially important as we begin a new chapter with this pandemic, given all the uncertainties surrounding the new variant.

[goboatingnow]

Sadly however the vast majority of anti Vaxxers are not reading peer reviewed science but simply reading nonsense on social media

[Exile]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sadly however the vast majority of anti Vaxxers are not reading peer reviewed science but simply reading nonsense on social media

Hard to imagine too many lay people read peer-reviewed science, and not being peer reviewed is certainly a factor but doesn't necessarily mean it's not worthy of peer review. Could be, but also could mean it hasn't happened yet. Often hard for a lay person to know.

Not sure how you know that the "vast majority" are unduly influenced by social media? I think there are a variety of reasons people are hesitant or opposed as discussed here and in other threads.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Zippee

https://medium.com/swlh/credible-mis...d-700105a12e25


Risch is a long time favorite of the anti-vax and other conspiracy disbelievers - as well as frequent appearances on conspiratorial media and shows. A quick check has found him to have been widely and repeatedly discredited, fact-checked and exposed as so influenced,...

...If there's a lesson here, it's to use our own good sense and perform due diligence to our best ability.

Pity that, ironically, you most likely have not learned that most excellent lesson, as your comment only repeats the smears of others and indicates nothing to suggest that you actually listened to and considered what Risch had to say in that interview.

For anyone who is serious, that is where due diligence begins. Depending on fact checkers and the media filter is no substitute for critical thinking.

[Greg K]

Originally Posted by Exile

I think the posting of credible research & information about vaccine risk is important, provided it elicits responses (as here) which fairly vets sources and responsibly puts those risks in context. I was actually surprised this was absent in the lengthy and otherwise excellent interview with the epidemiologist from S. Korea Zippee posted upthread, and I've noticed this from other public health officials as well. Any actual or perceived lack of transparency runs the risk of validating vaccine fears based on inaccurate information, all too easy to perpetuate over the internet if left unchallenged. Given the relatively high rates of vaccination in much of the world, most have concluded (but not all obviously) that such risks are outweighed by the greater risk of getting infected and becoming ill (or worse). But attempts by officialdom to ignore or suppress these risks -- no matter how small and regardless of good intentions -- only further sows (often misplaced) distrust in my view.

So while I personally don't often agree with many of the positions posters such as GregK and CatNewBee advance, I find their input valuable precisely because of the educational benefit of the debate which inevitably ensues. It also helps me better understand some of the vaccine hesitancy & resistance that's obviously out there in large numbers, and avoid much of the more superficial stereotyping that is so often resorted to. Imho, it facilitates a more thorough & deeper understanding than conclusions often arrived at from discussions where everyone is singing the same tune, with posters not in sync all too often derided or otherwise discouraged from posting. I find this especially important as we begin a new chapter with this pandemic, given all the uncertainties surrounding the new variant.

Another excellent, thoughtful post, Exile. Could not agree with you more on the need for diversity of opinions and the debate and consequent deeper understanding that follows from such open exchanges.

I would, however, suggest the "new chapter" we are entering is not going to be so much about what thus far looks to be "a nothing burger" new variant but, rather, a slowly but clearly failing narrative of vaccinations being the single solution in getting ourselves out of this mess.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Another excellent, thoughtful post, Exile. Could not agree with you more on the need for diversity of opinions and the debate and consequent deeper understanding that follows from such open exchanges.

I would, however, suggest the "new chapter" we are entering is not going to be so much about what thus far looks to be "a nothing burger" new variant but, rather, a slowly but clearly failing narrative of vaccinations being the single solution in getting ourselves out of this mess.

I certainly wouldn't call it a "nothing burger," at least not at this point. IF early evidence & predictions bear out, then it will hopefully be marked by milder illness but there will also be huge numbers of infections well beyond Delta. So even if the rate of serious illness is much lower, the sheer numbers of those infected could result in much higher numbers of people being symptomatic to the point of requiring medical attention if not hospitalization. The first UK death from Omicron has now been reported, although I haven't yet read anything about the vax status, age, or vulnerability of the victim in that case.

IF the predictions for Omicron prove correct, however, it could potentially change the calculus for policymakers when it comes to mandating vaccinations and other restrictions. IF, as has been forecast, almost everyone is going to become infected and the vaccines will primarily be effective at preventing serious illness, then the unvaccinated theoretically become more of a risk to themselves as opposed to the vaccinated population. This is assuming there's little we can do to prevent the virus from circulating and mutating, and the emphasis shifts to protecting ourselves, along with the vulnerable, as is the case with the flu.

Seems far too early to rely on such assumptions, however, which I imagine is why the UK and other countries are doubling down on boosters, etc. Too many unknowns at this point, and of course there's still Delta . . . .

[Wotname]

Norway goes into lockdown, bans alcohol, extends quarantine and will used armed forces for it's inoculation campaign as it records highs in terms of COVID-19 infections and hospitalisations.

Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere says "...For many this will feel like a lockdown..."

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coro...micron-threat/

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Norway goes into lockdown, bans alcohol, extends quarantine and will used armed forces for it's inoculation campaign as it records highs in terms of COVID-19 infections and hospitalisations.

Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere says "...For many this will feel like a lockdown..."

https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/coro...micron-threat/

Now you've done it - you've used 'lockdown' and 'Norway' in the same sentence!!

If you are allowed out but there is nowhere to go are you really allowed out?

Meanwhile whatever happened to Sweden?
Interesting piece here

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/exp...-pariah-sweden

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Now you've done it - you've used 'lockdown' and 'Norway' in the same sentence!!

If you are allowed out but there is nowhere to go are you really allowed out?

Meanwhile whatever happened to Sweden?
Interesting piece here

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/exp...-pariah-sweden

There's where to go, it's to keep distances and max 20 persons indoors...

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

There's where to go, it's to keep distances and max 20 persons indoors...

'On 12 December, the government announced a series of new measures. The most notable are:

A maximum of 10 guests in a private home. Up to 20 is permitted once as long as social distancing is maintained
A return to the colour-code system for schools. All are at yellow level, with schools for older children (videregående) at red
Home office mandated where this is possible
A ban on the serving of alcohol in bars and restaurants
Face masks required at all indoor events
Lower capacity limits on events'
https://www.lifeinnorway.net/coronavirus-in-norway/

Bars can't serve alcohol? That is beyond draconian and verging on dystopian.

We all know there is nothing more lonesome, morbid or drear than a pub with no beer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cKPchRDaVM

Probably worse in December in Norway.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Now you've done it - you've used 'lockdown' and 'Norway' in the same sentence!!

If you are allowed out but there is nowhere to go are you really allowed out?

Meanwhile whatever happened to Sweden?
Interesting piece here

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/exp...-pariah-sweden

A reasonable article about the Swedish pandemic approach, which reflects the evolving calmer, more intelligent, less freaked-out thinking about the pandemic.

And actually the picture is even much better than this. If you look at excess mortality rather than official covid deaths, which is a better long term comparison of the total effect of the pandemic, Sweden has the fifth or sixth lowest rate in Europe.

And they have far fewer problems with children's education, domestic abuse, harmed careers, and other collateral damage from stricter measures, than other European countries (but it has to be said that the other Nordic countries did even better).

But that is not to say that the Swedish approach is the only right one or that it would have even worked in other countries. The article you linked says some really wise things about this:

"Is it even useful to compare countries?

"We’ve seen it time and again throughout the pandemic – Ireland is great; Ireland is having a ‘mare; Be like Singapore; Singapore is swamped. So is it meaningless to compare countries?

"Blakely wouldn’t go that far, but does advise caution. There are two problems – the first is Hunter’s point, that two countries can have very different characteristics, which affect how the pandemic plays out.
Sweden, for example, has low population density and one of the world’s highest proportions of people living alone. Given Delta tends to infect everyone in a household, that could have a huge impact.

"The second problem is that the outcome of outbreaks can turn on the smallest things, including whether the virus reaches the areas where it can spread quickly, Blakely says. [That's what happened in Sweden vs the other Nordic countries.] In Melbourne, that was aged care. In Singapore, it was migrant worker dorms. In New Zealand, it was gangs and marginalised communities.

“'The vast majority of the time, what I did four weeks ago at 3.10 in the afternoon has no consequence on humanity. But if I happen to have gone into a rest home and kicked it off, then that one action of mine has a major impact.

“'Cross-national comparisons are useful, but people have placed too much reliance on them, because they think that if exactly what happened in Sweden happened in New Zealand, then the outcome would be exactly the same. Well, you can't get exactly the same circumstances, and you've also got things like seasonality, you've got different social structures between places. So things can play out differently.'”

Really good article.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Now you've done it - you've used 'lockdown' and 'Norway' in the same sentence!!

If you are allowed out but there is nowhere to go are you really allowed out?

. . .

So if you are allowed to go to a bar, which isn't closed, but you can't drink alcohol there, does that mean there is nowhere to go? Matter of perspective I guess. I know some people who would consider that "lockdown"

If we use "lockdown" as it's defined in the dictionary, then then measures in Norway are certainly not lockdown. Here is a summary of the measures:

1. It is recommended not to have more than 10 people at a time at Christmas parties and other gatherings, except on Christmas eve, when the recommendation is not more than 20.

2. It is recommended to maintain 1 meter social distance from people who are not from your own household. However, that advice does not apply to children, schools, people working with vulnerable people.

3. The public are advised to limit their social contacts, but not to the extent that they experience isolation. [How Nordic is that? ]

4. Restaurants can serve table service only [that's an imitation of the Swedish measure from the beginning of the pandemic, which turns out to have been very effective at little cost]

5. Bars, restaurants, and services like hairdressers are required to register the contact information of their customers, but only to the extent that their customers agree to share this information.

6. Employers are required to accomodate workers working at home, where it doesn't compromise necessary services

7. Universities are asked to reduce class sizes where possible and give more possibilities for remote learning

8. High schools are put on "red" level of measures, the highest level, with mandatory reduction of class sizes and partial remote learning.

https://www.thelocal.no/20211213/wha...nce-on-monday/
https://www.thelocal.no/20211207/wha...ay-on-tuesday/

The harshest measure is the ban on serving alcohol in restaurants and bars. These are pretty much identical to the Swedish measures during the first months of the pandemic in 2020, other than the ban on alcohol sales, but without the recommendation to avoid travel which the Swedes had in place during all of 2020.