Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Zippee may have been refering to the fact that one of the big bust ups between Sweden and the rest of the Scandis occured at the same time as the 'big tulip bubble' or 'tulip mania'.

The Swedes used to be a remarkably belligerent people.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...volving_Sweden

I think everyone knows that tulips are associated with Holland.

Zippee can speak for himself, but the Dutch tulip bubble rose and fell in one decade in the 1630's, during which Denmark (of which Norway was a part at that time) and Sweden (of which Finland was a part at that time) were allies in the Thirty Years War, so I doubt that's what he was thinking about. There's no shame in briefly confusing a couple of small European countries, for someone living on a different continent.



All the Scandinavians were very warlike peoples, from time immemorial, much more so than their cousins the Germans. Well, you know all about the Vikings. The Danish conquest of England. The Swedish Empire was a great power in Europe on the level of the Hapsburgs and France for a couple of centuries, ruling the whole Baltic Sea at times, and to be a great power you have to be at war continuously. Imperial Sweden's arch enemy and rival in Northern Europe was Russia, with whom the Swedes fought centuries of wars, and the Swedish Empire finally ended when Charles XII lost the Great Northern War with a poor decision to march on Moscow, the very same poor decision which ended Nazi Germany and which ended Bonapartist France. Doomed to repeat it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... the Swedish Empire finally ended when Charles XII lost the Great Northern War with a poor decision to march on Moscow, the very same poor decision which ended Nazi Germany and which ended Bonapartist France. Doomed to repeat it.

But, near as I can tell, nether Charles XII, Napoleon, nor Adolphe ended up with a monumental hangover.

[laird]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Zippee can speak for himself, but the Dutch tulip bubble rose and fell in one decade in the 1630's, during which Denmark (of which Norway was a part at that time) and Sweden (of which Finland was a part at that time) were allies in the Thirty Years War, so I doubt that's what he was thinking about. There's no shame in briefly confusing a couple of small European countries, for someone living on a different continent.



All the Scandinavians were very warlike peoples, from time immemorial, much more so than their cousins the Germans. Well, you know all about the Vikings. The Danish conquest of England. The Swedish Empire was a great power in Europe on the level of the Hapsburgs and France for a couple of centuries, ruling the whole Baltic Sea at times, and to be a great power you have to be at war continuously. Imperial Sweden's arch enemy and rival in Northern Europe was Russia, with whom the Swedes fought centuries of wars, and the Swedish Empire finally ended when Charles XII lost the Great Northern War with a poor decision to march on Moscow, the very same poor decision which ended Nazi Germany and which ended Bonapartist France. Doomed to repeat it.

The Danes did not conquer England ,they did come close but failed to subjugate mercia and Essex ,at one point in history , "England " was split in half with one half being called Daneland ,Alfred the great managed to weld together the country now known as England ,his grandson manage to finish the job off When he defeated the Celts ( Scots ,Irish and Welsh )
Scottish mercenaries were heavily involved in fighting Swedens wars

[laird]

Back on thread ,I've spoken to two colleagues who are self isolating with covid ,as yet only one knows that it is the omicron variant ,neither report feeling particularly sick , the lady with omnicron is also being treated for cancer ,she is by definition high risk ,she said that she's had heavier colds

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by laird

The Danes did not conquer England ,they did come close but failed to subjugate mercia and Essex ,at one point in history , "England " was split in half with one half being called Daneland ,Alfred the great managed to weld together the country now known as England ,his grandson manage to finish the job off When he defeated the Celts ( Scots ,Irish and Welsh )
Scottish mercenaries were heavily involved in fighting Swedens wars

Indeed, you are absolutely right, thanks for the correction.

Nevertheless, it IS referred to as the "Danish Conquest of England"; see: https://everything2.com/title/The+Da...est+of+England.

And didn't Cnut finally get all of it? "Cnut, King of England, Denmark, Norway, and part of Sweden", right? I can't remember exactly, though. You guys have simply so MUCH history, I can't keep it straight.


On topic for cruising this part of the world -- I am impressed over and over again, with the seafaring prowess of these peoples. They popped back and forth across the North Sea as if it were nothing. That is some of the fiercest water in the world, and the distances are not small. They rowed back and forth in their undecked Viking ships, hardly more than boats, summer and winter, and weren't afraid to take their king along? Having done a lot of sailing in those waters, it boggles my mind.

[Montanan]

Two separate British studies, looking at real-world data from England and Scotland, have backed up evidence from South Africa to point to less severity with Omicron cases, however. In England, they analyzed hospital records and vaccination data from the start of December, including 56,000 cases of Omicron and 269,000 cases of Delta. They found that the rate of hospitalization with Omicron was 20% to 25% lower than with the Delta infections, and that the rate of people staying in the hospital for at least one night with Omicron was was around 40% to 45% lower.

In Scotland, scientists scrutinized data from November 1 to December 19. In their pre-print paper, they said "early national data suggest that Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of COVID-19 hospitalization when compared to Delta."

They also said that a third or booster vaccine dose "offers substantial additional protection against the risk of symptomatic COVID-19 for Omicron."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgntp

[Zippee]

Zippee can speak for himself, but the Dutch tulip bubble rose and fell in one decade in the 1630's, during which Denmark (of which Norway was a part at that time) and Sweden (of which Finland was a part at that time) were allies in the Thirty Years War, so I doubt that's what he was thinking about. There's no shame in briefly confusing a couple of small European countries, for someone living on a different continent.

Speaking for myself (is there any other way)... just a joke, nothing more or less.

As so well said by Mark Twain: "American humor is different entirely to French, German, Scotch, or English humor. And the difference lies in the mode of expression. Though it comes from the English, American humor is distinct. As a rule when an Englishman writes or tells a story, the 'knob' of it, as we would call it, has to be emphasized or italicized, and exclamation points put in. Now, an American story-teller does not do that. He is apparently unconscious of the effect of the joke."

"Humor does not have to be true, but if effective finds the truth in the listener's mind."

No harm or literal accuracy intended. Just joining in the fun my friend...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Zippee

Speaking for myself (is there any other way)... just a joke, nothing more or less.

As so well said by Mark Twain: "American humor is different entirely to French, German, Scotch, or English humor. And the difference lies in the mode of expression. Though it comes from the English, American humor is distinct. As a rule when an Englishman writes or tells a story, the 'knob' of it, as we would call it, has to be emphasized or italicized, and exclamation points put in. Now, an American story-teller does not do that. He is apparently unconscious of the effect of the joke."

"Humor does not have to be true, but if effective finds the truth in the listener's mind."

No harm or literal accuracy intended. Just joining in the fun my friend...

[CatNewBee]

Australia decided to let it rip for heard immunity by infection to end the pandemic, by closely watching the hospital situation and focussing only on the vulnerable.

Finally the right approach. Hope other countries will follow soon.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

The Riddle of The Sands


Lovely story. I've read it a half a dozen times.



Sam Llewellyn did a nice sequel, too.

I was just thinking the same thing

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

On topic for cruising this part of the world -- I am impressed over and over again, with the seafaring prowess of these peoples. They popped back and forth across the North Sea as if it were nothing. That is some of the fiercest water in the world, and the distances are not small. They rowed back and forth in their undecked Viking ships, hardly more than boats, summer and winter, and weren't afraid to take their king along? Having done a lot of sailing in those waters, it boggles my mind.

What I've also found mind-boggling is that they largely did it in relatively shallow draft boats, did they not? So they could navigate up inland rivers? Seems to defy more conventional notions of seaworthiness & stability in rough seas. But then we're learning more & more about their boatbuilding prowess all the time.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Zippee

Speaking for myself (is there any other way)... just a joke, nothing more or less.

As so well said by Mark Twain: "American humor is different entirely to French, German, Scotch, or English humor. And the difference lies in the mode of expression. Though it comes from the English, American humor is distinct. As a rule when an Englishman writes or tells a story, the 'knob' of it, as we would call it, has to be emphasized or italicized, and exclamation points put in. Now, an American story-teller does not do that. He is apparently unconscious of the effect of the joke."

"Humor does not have to be true, but if effective finds the truth in the listener's mind."

No harm or literal accuracy intended. Just joining in the fun my friend...

Not to insult anyone but German humor? Anyone heard of it? I can think of two things they joke about but anything else but bodily functions..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

What I've also found mind-boggling is that they largely did it in relatively shallow draft boats, did they not? So they could navigate up inland rivers? Seems to defy more conventional notions of seaworthiness & stability in rough seas. But then we're learning more & more about their boatbuilding prowess all the time.

Well, by this time in history, stability is a precise science.

I don't know what modern naval architects make of Viking ships, but the implications of flattish bottoms and open decks are pretty obvious. I've been knocked flat in the North Sea by a breaking wave in a sea state which is pretty common in those waters. In a 54 foot boat with closed decks and a deep bulb keel. What would a wave like that do to an undecked Viking ship?



It wasn't the boats, I daresay -- must have been the seamen. They must have known an awful lot about the weather, too. I am really in awe.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Australia decided to let it rip for heard immunity by infection to end the pandemic, by closely watching the hospital situation and focussing only on the vulnerable.

Finally the right approach. Hope other countries will follow soon.

Hard to say if this was the right approach for previous variants and their impacts in Australia and the rest of the world, but if Omicron continues to present as it already has then, indeed, there may have to be a shift in focus from infection rates standing alone to protecting the elderly & vulnerable. This is both the result of what increasingly looks like a dramatic change in the nature & effect of the new variant, as well as what is already being called by some experts as a "game-changing" new treatment drug from Pfizer that just received emergency FDA authorization. It will reportedly still take a few weeks to ramp up production & distribution, and meanwhile there's still Delta.

What will be interesting is if this also necessarily changes the focus on the unvaccinated as blameworthy for keeping the pandemic going and overburdening health care systems. If, as is being reported, the vaccines aren't all that effective in preventing transmission, and treatments become more available to prevent more serious illness requiring hospitalization, then there may no longer be much need to blame, isolate, or impose mandates on the unvaccinated.

We'll see, and erring on the side of caution may still have to be the order of the day for awhile. But new developments are moving fast . . . .

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Two separate British studies, looking at real-world data from England and Scotland, have backed up evidence from South Africa to point to less severity with Omicron cases, however. In England, they analyzed hospital records and vaccination data from the start of December, including 56,000 cases of Omicron and 269,000 cases of Delta. They found that the rate of hospitalization with Omicron was 20% to 25% lower than with the Delta infections, and that the rate of people staying in the hospital for at least one night with Omicron was was around 40% to 45% lower.

In Scotland, scientists scrutinized data from November 1 to December 19. In their pre-print paper, they said "early national data suggest that Omicron is associated with a two-thirds reduction in the risk of COVID-19 hospitalization when compared to Delta."

They also said that a third or booster vaccine dose "offers substantial additional protection against the risk of symptomatic COVID-19 for Omicron."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgntp

20-25% is not enough difference to be meaningful in the context of protecting health care systems being overrun from what I can figure.