Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by laird

9 new billionaires have been created from vaccine supply , biontech and moderna ceos have both gotten very rich from the vaccine

Who? [not a challenge, just interested]
See also:
"... Pfizer shares [‘PFE’ on NYSE] dropped sharply, on Tuesday [Feb 8/22] ..."
➥https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3570947

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I think Greece has done this about 3 times. It’s seems however , the Virus doesn’t read government press releases.

Yes, well, the Danes are doing this in the middle of the biggest outbreak ever. On one single day alone last week, 1% of the entire population was infected.

That's why I wrote "maybe they really mean it this time". There also might just be some perverse sounding (but possibly correct) logic going on like -- how much worse could it possibly be? We might as well forget the restrictions. I wonder.

The infection rate of over 7,000 per million (!) should be taken with some grain of salt -- they are testing a lot more than other countries. The death rate is somewhat reasonable, but not at all trivial, a bit under 4 per million, about the same as Sweden:

[laird]

Looks like they are going to drop the self isolation requirements in the UK ,at present we have to self isolate for 5 days and can only return after we have two negative results using our test kits

Boris announced in parliament today that the plan now looking like it will be brought forward by a month from its original date of March 24th

[Exile]

More on Denmark that's a bit confusing:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~DNK

New cases off the chart (but maybe peaking), with deaths also on the rise as would be expected. Hospital admissions following suit, yet ICU occupancy has fallen off rapidly since Feb. 5th. If policymakers are back to protecting hospitals as opposed to also trying to curb new infections, I'm not sure what to make of these stats (assuming they're painting a realistic picture).

[Exile]

Same metrics looking better in the UK, i.e. suggesting they've now moved past a recent peak (hopefully).

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~GBR

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Exile

More on Denmark that's a bit confusing:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers...e&country=~DNK

New cases off the chart (but maybe peaking), with deaths also on the rise as would be expected. Hospital admissions following suit, yet ICU occupancy has fallen off rapidly since Feb. 5th. If policymakers are back to protecting hospitals as opposed to also trying to curb new infections, I'm not sure what to make of these stats (assuming they're painting a realistic picture).

Yeah, I also don't fully understand what is going on.


I guess -- case numbers are really high but not so high in comparison to other countries as it looks, because of the very high rate of testing in Denmark. I think Omicron is ripping through the world, and the proportion of unrecorded cases is much higher because there are so many mild or asymptomatic cases. So infection rates are much higher in comparison to official cases, than they were in previous waves, except in Denmark where they test so much they are catching a big percent of them. As a guess!



I think policymakers see hospitalization as reasonable (one of them said something about that) and unlikely to get worse, as at this high infection rate there will soon be no one left to infect. Ergo -- let her rip. Maybe they are even happy to get it over with; maybe they are hoping for that elusive herd immunity at last.



But that's just my guess.



But if all that's true, then perhaps not an unreasonable approach. Denmark has the highest or second highest vaccination rate in Europe, another reason mentioned in the article for their confidence.


Glad to see infection and death rates coming down in Sweden, after a very small peak of deaths compared to previous waves.


Norway has a lot of infections but very low death rate.


Finland is unclear at the moment. We shall see.

[Baronkrak]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

...
“This will be the first time Australians have been criminalised for returning to their country, Australian media report.”

This is not quickly forgotten.

I did not think that you would give credit to hearsay

"Australia's border is gradually reopening. Fully vaccinated Australians and permanent residents can now travel into Australia. Find out what you need to be able to travel to Australia."

https://www.health.gov.au/health-ale...travel/inbound

Not banned not criminalized just temporarily kept out from killing more people and wrecking further the economy.
Anything wrong with that?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Baronkrak

I did not think that you would give credit to hearsay

"Australia's border is gradually reopening. Fully vaccinated Australians and permanent residents can now travel into Australia. Find out what you need to be able to travel to Australia."

https://www.health.gov.au/health-ale...travel/inbound

Not banned not criminalized just temporarily kept out from killing more people and wrecking further the economy.
Anything wrong with that?

Exactly, and the ABS stats suggest that very few Australians have been unable to get home over the longer term.

You have to drill into this a bit
https://www.abs.gov.au/statistics/in...latest-release

However in November 19 ( pre Covid) 1.5 million arrivals and the same number of departures were 'short term' ie primarily holiday makers.

In November 2020 short term Australian resident arrivals and departures were about 13,000 each way. So no more long weekends in Bali but plenty of people going 'home' to bury granny.
Long term returnees were a fraction of the total.

As mentioned by me previously - departure permits were easy to obtain.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yeah, I also don't fully understand what is going on.


I guess -- case numbers are really high but not so high in comparison to other countries as it looks, because of the very high rate of testing in Denmark. I think Omicron is ripping through the world, and the proportion of unrecorded cases is much higher because there are so many mild or asymptomatic cases. So infection rates are much higher in comparison to official cases, than they were in previous waves, except in Denmark where they test so much they are catching a big percent of them. As a guess!



I think policymakers see hospitalization as reasonable (one of them said something about that) and unlikely to get worse, as at this high infection rate there will soon be no one left to infect. Ergo -- let her rip. Maybe they are even happy to get it over with; maybe they are hoping for that elusive herd immunity at last.



But that's just my guess.



But if all that's true, then perhaps not an unreasonable approach. Denmark has the highest or second highest vaccination rate in Europe, another reason mentioned in the article for their confidence.


Glad to see infection and death rates coming down in Sweden, after a very small peak of deaths compared to previous waves.


Norway has a lot of infections but very low death rate.


Finland is unclear at the moment. We shall see.

FWIW, my guess is your guesses are close to the mark.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . .As mentioned by me previously - departure permits were easy to obtain.

Departure permits?

The only encounter I ever had with departure permits (actually, "exit visa") was in the old USSR, in Soviet times. They were easy to get, so no problem, right? Well, at least as long as you weren't on someone's list. I don't think even Communist China requires departure permits any more.

Other than that, I've never heard of any country requiring "departure permits". I'm surprised you guys really think this is OK. You're really not attached to any of your civil liberties?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Baronkrak

I did not think that you would give credit to hearsay

"Australia's border is gradually reopening. Fully vaccinated Australians and permanent residents can now travel into Australia. Find out what you need to be able to travel to Australia."

https://www.health.gov.au/health-ale...travel/inbound

Not banned not criminalized just temporarily kept out from killing more people and wrecking further the economy.
Anything wrong with that?

Only if there were less restrictive means of preventing "killing more people and wrecking further the economy." The science has long endorsed the effectiveness of testing and/or quarantines to insure no new infections are entering a country, whether by citizens or otherwise. Ping mentioned above a shortage of hotel space at times to implement quarantines, so maybe this was the rationale for the restriction, whether temporary or otherwise. The idea of preventing a citizen of a country from returning home sounds pretty severe and, as Dockhead cited above, may implicate basic human rights. This doesn't mean that extraordinary circumstances presented by the pandemic cannot cause a suspension of such rights to protect a dire threat to public health, but I wouldn't think citizens would simply want to forego such rights without at least questioning the scientific validity of the govt's rationale. Maybe this was done here and there were other compelling justifications I'm not aware of, so can only comment generally.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Exactly, and the ABS stats suggest that very few Australians have been unable to get home over the longer term.

* * *

Good to hear, with the caveat over what the "longer term" means. (didn't do any drilling down)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Departure permits?

The only encounter I ever had with departure permits (actually, "exit visa") was in the old USSR, in Soviet times. They were easy to get, so no problem, right? Well, at least as long as you weren't on someone's list. I don't think even Communist China requires departure permits any more.

Other than that, I've never heard of any country requiring "departure permits". I'm surprised you guys really think this is OK. You're really not attached to any of your civil liberties?

It was a temporary measure to solve a temporary problem, problem solved.

Permits are no longer required, they have served their purpose, I'm surprised you can't see that.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Exile

.....



Good to hear, with the caveat over what the "longer term" means. (didn't do any drilling down)

At the start of the pandemic pretty much every Australian expat wanted to come home yesterday. There were insufficient places for them in quarantine. There was a queue. That queue sorted itself soon enough. Think off it as everyone wanting to go to the first night of a movie or get on the first bus home after a footy match.
Its what happens when demand outstrips supply.

I don't think everything that has been done in this country was correct - the quarantine system was a CCF.

[goboatingnow]

I think policymakers see hospitalization as reasonable (one of them said something about that) and unlikely to get worse, as at this high infection rate there will soon be no one left to infect. Ergo -- let her rip. Maybe they are even happy to get it over with; maybe they are hoping for that elusive herd immunity at last.

Yes I had a mental picture of Dr Tony Houlihan our head of NPHET , basically saying " ah -f this , Im off for a pint, oh better open the pubs first " cause everyone was surprised that most things even social distancing , covid passes ( which were required for about 4 weeks !!!) etc, were removed , the only visible restriction is masks in shops

( i think the retailers know something , antigen tests and masks are heavily heavily discounted at the moment)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

. . . Permits are no longer required, they have served their purpose, I'm surprised you can't see that.

I do see it. But neither their being "easy to get", nor their being temporary, changes the fact that the state has taken into its hands the power to grant or deny you permission to leave your own country, something which even some pretty repressive regimes don't dare to do to their people. Seriously, that doesn't bother you?