Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

sure but sadly almost all states have and are still are engaging in pushing civil liberties boundaries when it suits them , The UK and the US with internment without trial ( and not in wartime per se) , Irelands constitutions contains no mention of freedom of travel ( except now one cannot be prevented from travelling to secure an abortion abroad !) This lack of freedom was used in 1938 to attempt to prevent volunteers ( 70,000) from Ireland joining the British Army, of course, it didnt work , people just walked across the NI border !!

its entirely naive to expect a piece of paper to prevent tyranny , it never has and it never will, fear can make people depart completely from reason , the US is a case in point as are many other situations ( and the Weimar Republic , which was a liberal political situation swept aside by a dictator, a situation not done against the people, but with their active support )

hence the issue is the "Gubermint" its the people themselves !

I agree with you completely!


A good constitution is not just a "piece of paper". It's a law. But you are absolutely right that it's useless without a culture of civil society, respect for the law, skepticism about the use of power, and concern for civil liberties, particularly the civil liberties of others, especially the civil liberties of those we don't agree with. What you say about Weimar is EXACTLY my point! Where we are heading is not encouraging, and the U.S. worst of all.


But the apparent complacency with which the Antipodeans allowed themselves to be subjected to exit visas, like in North Korea, without apparently a peep -- blows my mind. I wouldn't have thought in a million years.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Totally off topic but I can think of one country whose 'democracy' is infinitely more likely than Australia's to turn to custard.
Them as brought out that 'permit' legislation will be swelling the ranks of the unemployed in a few short months.

You are of course talking about the U.S., and yes, I completely agree. I could say a lot about that but that's really too far off topic.

[Dockhead]

Also even if Oz is the most spectacular case, it's far from the only country where democracy took a beating during the pandemic. This makes chilling reading: https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...utm_id=1045717

[goboatingnow]

I’ve always argued with people that this was the biggest suppression of civil liberties since WW2. It fell in deaf ears. One friend is a biology professor. Was totally behind the restrictions , yet he’d be a classic civil liberties type in other areas.

It’s being very worrying watching both politics and fear colliding , the outcome will take years to undo if ever.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Not unduly considering the circumstances and I wager more than a few countries had similar restrictions over the last few years. NZ? you could leave but could not expect to get back in for a very long time.



And not unexpected with our current Liberal government.



It shouldn't have been necessary. Common sense - an uncommon virtue - told me that in the pre vaxx days it would not be wise to spend over 20 hours at a New York airport so I stayed home.



Free movement is fine if you don't have quarantine.



While most tourist destinations were not letting people in anyway we would have still had a lot of dummies heading off o'seas and then squealing like stuck pigs when they found they had to wait 3 months to get home.







Exceptional times called for exceptional measures.

That last line is what’s trotted out to justify everything from Gitmo to the Holocaust or storming capital hill.

It’s a mark of a civilisation that in the face of “ exceptional “ circumstances it keeps to its civil liberties principles. Many of whom were secured by blood sacrifice.

Many countries did not limit or severely limit travel and came through this just fine

I would always say saving civil liberties justifies a certain death rate. Many were secured by death.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Departure permits?

The only encounter I ever had with departure permits (actually, "exit visa") was in the old USSR, in Soviet times. They were easy to get, so no problem, right? Well, at least as long as you weren't on someone's list. I don't think even Communist China requires departure permits any more.

Other than that, I've never heard of any country requiring "departure permits". I'm surprised you guys really think this is OK. You're really not attached to any of your civil liberties?

Departing Alien Clearance (Sailing Permit)
Before leaving the United States, all aliens (except those listed below under Aliens Not Required To Obtain Sailing or Departure Permits) must obtain a certificate of compliance.
This document, also popularly known as the sailing permit or departure permit, must be secured from the IRS before leaving the U.S.
You will receive a sailing or departure permit after filing a Form 1040-C, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Return or Form 2063, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Statement and Annual Certificate of Compliance.
More ➥ https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...sailing-permit

The idea behind the sailing permit is that, the IRS wants to know when a Legal Permanent Resident, or resident alien, who meets substantial presence, has relinquished their U.S. Person status.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’ve always argued with people that this was the biggest suppression of civil liberties since WW2. It fell in deaf ears. One friend is a biology professor. Was totally behind the restrictions , yet he’d be a classic civil liberties type in other areas.

It’s being very worrying watching both politics and fear colliding , the outcome will take years to undo if ever.

But you are absolutely right.


There is a lot of alarm among constitutional scholars.


People who are afraid will agree to anything. It's not good that politicians around the world are relearning this. Not good at all.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Departing Alien Clearance (Sailing Permit)
Before leaving the United States, all aliens (except those listed below under Aliens Not Required To Obtain Sailing or Departure Permits) must obtain a certificate of compliance.
This document, also popularly known as the sailing permit or departure permit, must be secured from the IRS before leaving the U.S.
You will receive a sailing or departure permit after filing a Form 1040-C, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Return or Form 2063, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Statement and Annual Certificate of Compliance.
More ➥ https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...sailing-permit

The idea behind the sailing permit is that, the IRS wants to know when a Legal Permanent Resident, or resident alien, who meets substantial presence, has relinquished their U.S. Person status.

This does not apply to own citizens -- who have a constitutional right to leave as they please, subject to very limited exceptions which can be imposed only according to due process.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But you are absolutely right.


There is a lot of alarm among constitutional scholars.


People who are afraid will agree to anything. It's not good that politicians around the world are relearning this. Not good at all.

DH... it has not been a case of politicians relearning the techniques of ruling by fear in the US.. its been applied many times since WW2 from 'Reds under the bed' in the 50's right upto today with a lame duck President trying desperately to deflect from his failings to the extent of possibly instigating another World War with a rerun from the Gulf War playbook.
As for the UK.. its long been known that Prime Ministers will do anything to get on the lucrative speaking circuit and win gratuitous UN titles once their terms are over.
War criminals 1-0 The citizens.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’ve always argued with people that this was the biggest suppression of civil liberties since WW2. It fell in deaf ears. One friend is a biology professor. Was totally behind the restrictions , yet he’d be a classic civil liberties type in other areas.

It’s being very worrying watching both politics and fear colliding , the outcome will take years to undo if ever.

The great difference in my opinion is that your professor friend was able to see this as beneficial to him directly from a risk perspective. He very likely was able to isolate comfortably and still have a paycheque.

[Dockhead]

The pandemic is over? No it's not. Today I am grieving for the latest person of my acquaintance who died from COVID. Mārtinš Rītinš, Latvia's most famous chef and a giant of the culinary world of Northern Europe, with a personality as extraordinary as his cooking, died today from COVID. He cooked at Vincent's in Riga, my favorite restaurant in Europe, serving some of the most creative and exquisite food I've ever had, a Michelin-star worthy menu but with more creative twists, and at reasonable cost, no one made any money from this, it was all done for the love of the culinary arts.


The last time I was at Vincents, Mārtinš served us himself. After we chose some wine, he brought a "compliment of the chef" -- two cans of Soviet sprats served on white plates. You know, the kind packed it what tastes like motor oil? What the hell? With the little key to open them. We did and -- there were no sprats inside, but some exquisitely delicate little bite of something. He was always playing jokes like this.



Some idea of his personality can be gotten from his YouTube videos, like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjqGe57Ax4M

, even if you don't understand the language.


He was apparently healthy, was vaccinated, so full of life the last time I saw him. This accursed, accursed pandemic. RIP.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Departing Alien Clearance (Sailing Permit)
Before leaving the United States, all aliens (except those listed below under Aliens Not Required To Obtain Sailing or Departure Permits) must obtain a certificate of compliance.
This document, also popularly known as the sailing permit or departure permit, must be secured from the IRS before leaving the U.S.
You will receive a sailing or departure permit after filing a Form 1040-C, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Return or Form 2063, U.S. Departing Alien Income Tax Statement and Annual Certificate of Compliance.
More ➥ https://www.irs.gov/individuals/inte...sailing-permit


The idea behind the sailing permit is that, the IRS wants to know when a Legal Permanent Resident, or resident alien, who meets substantial presence, has relinquished their U.S. Person status.

Wow! Gord, very astute of you and remarkable that you would be aware of this seldom arising sailing or departure clearance requirement.

The purpose is to obtain information regarding taxation that may be owed before the alien departs and to receive a certification that the Internal Revenue Service agent has certified that the alien has complied with the US taxation regulations before being allowing the alien to depart the USA.

Yet, almost all ordinary departing aliens fall within the very long list of exemptions because most casual aliens are not permitted to work in the USA and thus do not earn an income that can be subject to taxation and thus are exempt from having to file a departing alien income tax return or the Annual Certificate of Compliance with the US tax regulations.

It applies mostly to alien Greencard holders who are allowed to work and earn an income in the USA.

By way of example:

If you must get a sailing or departure permit, you must file Form 2063 or Form 1040-C. Both forms have a "certificate of compliance" section. When the certificate of compliance is signed by an agent of the Field Assistance Area Director, it certifies that your U.S. tax obligations have been satisfied according to available information. Your Form 1040-C copy of the signed certificate, or the one detached from Form 2063, is your sailing or departure permit.

Form 2063
This is a short form that asks for certain information but does not include a tax computation. The following departing aliens can get their sailing or departure permits by filing Form 2063:

Aliens, whether resident or nonresident, who have had no taxable income for the tax year up to and including the date of departure and for the preceding year, if the period for filing the income tax return for that year has not expired.
Resident aliens who have received taxable income during the tax year or preceding year and whose departure will not hinder the collection of any tax. However, if the IRS has information indicating that the aliens are leaving to avoid paying their income tax, they must file a Form 1040-C.
Aliens in either of these categories who have not filed an income tax return or paid income tax for any tax year must file the return and pay the income tax before they can be issued a sailing or departure permit on Form 2063.

The sailing or departure permit detached from Form 2063 can be used for all departures during the current year. However, the IRS may cancel the sailing or departure permit for any later departure if it believes the collection of income tax is jeopardized by that later departure.

Form 1040-C
If you must get a sailing or departure permit and you do not qualify to file Form 2063, you must file Form 1040-C.

Ordinarily, all income received or reasonably expected to be received during the tax year up to and including the date of departure must be reported on Form 1040-C and the tax on it must be paid. When you pay any tax shown as due on the Form 1040-C, and you file all returns and pay all tax due for previous years, you will receive a sailing or departure permit. However, the IRS may permit you to furnish a bond guaranteeing payment instead of paying the taxes for certain years. The sailing or departure permit issued under the conditions in this paragraph is only for the specific departure for which it is issued.

Note: Lawful permanent resident aliens (green card holders) with no definite plans to return to the U.S. must notify the Department of Homeland Security of their termination of residency and file Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement, with the IRS if they:

plan to surrender their green card, and
have been a lawful permanent resident in at least 8 taxable years during the previous 15 taxable years, including the taxable year during which they surrender their green card

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The pandemic is over? No it's not. Today I am grieving for the latest person of my acquaintance who died from COVID. Mārtinš Rītinš, Latvia's most famous chef and a giant of the culinary world of Northern Europe, with a personality as extraordinary as his cooking, died today from COVID. . . .

He was apparently healthy, was vaccinated, so full of life the last time I saw him. This accursed, accursed pandemic. RIP.

My condolences on the passing of Martins.

Many of us know of persons who have passed due to Covid, and / or who have had their health and well-being debilitated by Long Covid and there will be many more yet to come.

The USA's number of cases appears to be declining from its astronomically high rates of the Omicron variant transmission, but deaths lag the new infections. And there will be a great deal of premature deaths and serious illnesses and reduced life expectancy as a result of having had Covid, even mild cases thereof, as the lingering damage done is considerable after one resolves the acute stage of infection.

This pandemic and its effects are far from over. We will be facing the residual health damage for many years to come, even if it settles into being endemic.

The USA is in its fourth wave, yet unfortunately only 65% of the population is fully vaccinated and considerably lesser so that have been boosted. There are still a lot of unvaccinated individuals and there is the entire youngest age population that have yet to be allowed to become vaccinated. Dismal and saddening illustrative graph below. Deaths still over 2,000 per day.

As Yogi Berra said [albeit about baseball]: "It ain't over, 'til it's over."

Covid is not nearly over.

Omicron has pushed aside Alpha and Delta, and another variant will likely arrive to displace Omicron.

[Zippee]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Also even if Oz is the most spectacular case, it's far from the only country where democracy took a beating during the pandemic. This makes chilling reading: https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...utm_id=1045717

An interesting link, thank you as always.


There is little doubt that there is an international coincidence of anti-government, anti-democracy growth, largely financed by rightist big money. Perhaps the "chilling" part is that there is any movement away from democracy and science.

As a sidebar, if anything this article fails to do full credit, or maybe the ratings trail the reality

"Despite riots in the Capitol and attempts by the departing president Donald Trump to overturn the election results, the inauguration of Joe Biden proceeded smoothly and America’s democracy score only fell by 0.07 points. Canada suffered a far bigger setback, of 0.37 points."

The attempted coup of Jan 6th evidenced a "smooth inauguration"? Whew.

Those of us who are living with all this - for myself in the US - realize the latter, that the ratings trail the reality. It is clear here that the November elections may well be the death knell: if the lockstep, anti-democracy party (based in part on anti-science and anti-vaxx memes) takes over, it would be hard not to call it over.

Apparently it was not enough that our own capitol was invaded - with almost no real consequence for the planners, inciters or participants. Now a growing group of "Freedom Truckers" have literally invaded Ottawa and shut down bridges. The announced goal is to invade several US cities and major events (eg the Super Bowl) and a history of non-accountability, this is only the beginning.

The talk of civil war is not idle. A recent survey revealed that a bit over 30% of the American public sees violence as necessary and acceptable. And the loyal opposition slow walks, threatens but does not engage the law, fails to arrest and prosecute. The truckers should be arrested, the trucks confiscated and moved.

The US - who used to be a super power of note, has become far more than a laughing stock. The worldwide reflection may be based on the notion that if the so-called Citadel of Democracy is failing rapidly, then all bets are off. Incited chaos offers authoritarianism to a frightened and disoriented public.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Zippee

An interesting link, thank you as always.


There is little doubt that there is an international coincidence of anti-government, anti-democracy growth, largely financed by rightist big money. Perhaps the "chilling" part is that there is any movement away from democracy and science.

As a sidebar, if anything this article fails to do full credit, or maybe the ratings trail the reality The attempted coup of Jan 6th evidenced a "smooth inauguration"? Whew.

Those of us who are living with all this - for myself in the US - realize the latter, that the ratings trail the reality. It is clear here that the November elections may well be the death knell: if the lockstep, anti-democracy party (based in part on anti-science and anti-vaxx memes) takes over, it would be hard not to call it over.

Apparently it was not enough that our own capitol was invaded - with almost no real consequence for the planners, inciters or participants. Now a growing group of "Freedom Truckers" have literally invaded Ottawa and shut down bridges. The announced goal is to invade several US cities and major events (eg the Super Bowl) and a history of non-accountability, this is only the beginning.

The talk of civil war is not idle. A recent survey revealed that a bit over 30% of the American public sees violence as necessary and acceptable. And the loyal opposition slow walks, threatens but does not engage the law, fails to arrest and prosecute. The truckers should be arrested, the trucks confiscated and moved.

The US - who used to be a super power of note, has become far more than a laughing stock. The worldwide reflection may be based on the notion that if the so-called Citadel of Democracy is failing rapidly, then all bets are off.

Your analysis is back to front.

The recent attacks on democracy as you portray them, including the protest by the truckers against excessive authoritarian covid controls are not attacks on democracy, they are protests for more and better democracy.

They are peacefully protesting against the decisions of an unacceptably authoritarian, anti-democratic state. Your call for their suppression and arrest is evidence of where the harm to US and Western democracy actually comes from. From those who are predisposed to a strong state - from the left.