Northern Europe during Pandemic -- Summers 2020 & 2021 & onwards

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well I was talking to a Portuguese doctor the other day (the missus has a lot of friends in the profession) and he said most of the people who have died in hospital came in for other reasons, cancer, diabetes, cardiac etc..
However while in hospital picked up Covid.. while they actually died of the disease they were admitted for, they were listed as Covid deaths being as they had been positive prior to time of death.
Any figures are skewed as a result.

I was talking to my second cousin's stepdaughter the other day and she suggested I read this.
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/covi...lity-australia

A few quotes and I think we can rely on the ABS.

Some points - NB the 2639 deaths is total deaths involving covid in Australia since the start of the pandemic.

'Key Statistics
2,639 deaths where people died with or from COVID-19 that occurred by 31 January 2022 have been registered and received by the ABS. The ABS expects to receive further registrations for this period from the jurisdictional Registries of Births, Deaths and Marriages.
The majority (2,556 deaths) of these 2,639 deaths were due directly to COVID-19.
There were a further 83 people who died of other causes (e.g. cancer) but were COVID-19 positive at the time of death.
Chronic cardiac conditions were the most common pre-existing chronic condition for those who had COVID-19 certified as the underlying cause of death.'

'Other deaths that had COVID-19 as a term on the death certificate included:

83 deaths which were COVID-19 related. This is where the person died with COVID-19 (confirmed or suspected) but it was not the underlying cause of death.'

'COVID-19 was the underlying cause of death for 2,556 registered deaths that have been received by the ABS occurring up to 31 January 2022. The WHO defines the underlying cause of death as the disease or condition that initiated the train of morbid events leading to death. '


This is interesting and is due - I think - to the employment profile and living conditions of the various groups with many from the middle east being in service industries and living in multi generational households.

'Death due to COVID-19: Country of birth
Those who died of COVID-19 with a country of birth overseas, had an age-standardised death rate close to three times that of people who were born in Australia (6.8 deaths per 100,000 people versus 2.3 deaths).
Those with a country of birth in the Middle East had the highest age-standardised death rate at 29.3 deaths per 100,000 people.
Those with a country of birth in the United Kingdom and Ireland had the lowest age-standardised death rate at 2.1 per 100,000 people.'

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Greg K

Not enough for me, and many others, especially with long term effects being unknown. I took Ivermectin and it stopped the illness in its tracks in three days. Should I feel bad about my choice?

Instead of hating on people who have made an informed decision not to take an experimental inoculation why don't vaccine shills like you and Montanan direct your hostility at the FDA and CDC for suppressing known early treatments such as Ivermectin which could have prevented the unnecessary deaths of hundreds of thousands in the US alone?

Greg:

My stated growing intolerance for the unvaccinated and diminishing empathy for unvaccinated person that become ill from Covid is not hating on people or directing hostility.

Whereas calling a forum member a shill would be hating on a person and directing hostility towards them.

Please try to remain civil with your posts and on point.

[goboatingnow]

However while in hospital picked up Covid.. while they actually died of the disease they were admitted for, they were listed as Covid deaths being as they had been positive prior to time of death.
Any figures are skewed as a result.

it actually depends, There is significant data from the Uk and USA, showing that Covid often "pushed" people with co-morbidities over the edge so to speak , would they have lived if they had no co-morbibities but contracted Covid, more then likely , but they wee not in that grouping

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Greg:

My stated growing intolerance for the unvaccinated and diminishing empathy for unvaccinated person that become ill from Covid is not hating on people or directing hostility.

Whereas calling a forum member a shill would be hating on a person and directing hostility towards them.

Please try to remain civil with your posts and on point.

Montanan - these are your words:

‘To this day, I find it hard to accept the reality that so many people can be so damned stupid and belligerent.
There is freedom and then there is freedumb. Far too much Freedumb has been community spread. Just saying and believing.’

If you don’t think calling people damned stupid and belligerent is not ‘hating on people’, you are kidding yourself. Your self righteousness wears thin on us who choose not to get vaccinated. Show me the long term data proving this vaccine is safe. You can not because it doesn’t exist. You have chosen to be part of a grand experiment, I do not but have remained healthy.

[goboatingnow]

If you don’t think calling people damned stupid and belligerent is not ‘hating on people’, you are kidding yourself. Your self righteousness wears thin on us who choose not to get vaccinated. Show me the long term data proving this vaccine is safe. You can not because it doesn’t exist. You have chosen to be part of a grand experiment, I do not but have remained healthy.

One does not prove things safe, one proves things are dangerous . Can you point to any credible data that says the vaccines are actually dangerous

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One does not prove things safe, one proves things are dangerous . Can you point to any credible data that says the vaccines are actually dangerous

It's better to err on the side of caution, it's a good thing we have a choice and the right to bodily integrity.

There will always be people out there who oppose.

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One does not prove things safe, one proves things are dangerous . Can you point to any credible data that says the vaccines are actually dangerous

Here are the things I know:

The vaccine has failed to prevent people from getting Covid or transmitting it.

I got Covid and it was a mere annoyance, I didn’t skip a beat and now have natural immunity.

The long term effects are not known, and you can’t tell me it’s not going to have any. I’m very comfortable with my choice.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

One does not prove things safe, one proves things are dangerous . Can you point to any credible data that says the vaccines are actually dangerous

Based on the 5 or 6 heart related questions they asked me before giving me a booster, the vaccine can absolutely be dangerous to some. In the same way that Covid is extremely dangerous to some. Yes I know the percentages are way higher for Covid than the vaccines.

I think there is much acrimony and disagreement resulting from the absolutes so many of us seem to throw at these issues. I knew there was risk from the vaccines but felt there was more risk of a bad outcome from Covid.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Here are the things I know:

The vaccine has failed to prevent people from getting Covid or transmitting it.

I got Covid and it was a mere annoyance, I didn’t skip a beat and now have natural immunity.

The long term effects are not known, and you can’t tell me it’s not going to have any. I’m very comfortable with my choice.

It was never claimed by responsible scientists that it would prevent transmission

There's no such thing as immunity , you may have a reduced risk , but my daughter for example got Delta and 4 months later contracted Omicron

Covid was a mere annoyance to you , but thats after the fact , it could have also been very serious

we have no idea what the long terms effects of the vaccine are, but there is no evidence any material remains in the body and vaccines in general have been administered to humans for decades

[Buster Brown]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It was never claimed by responsible scientists that it would prevent transmission

There's no such thing as immunity , you may have a reduced risk , but my daughter for example got Delta and 4 months later contracted Omicron

Covid was a mere annoyance to you , but thats after the fact , it could have also been very serious

we have no idea what the long terms effects of the vaccine are, but there is no evidence any material remains in the body and vaccines in general have been administered to humans for decades

Yep, it could have been worse, but it wasn’t. I could have been hit by a truck, but I wasn’t. We can play that game all day.

I guess it’s how you determine which scientists are responsible. A whole bunch of damage control was necessary when the head of the CDC claimed vaccinated people could not transmit the disease.

https://thehill.com/changing-america...-people-are-no

John Hopkins seems to disagree with your denial of immunity. I’ll go with them.

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/heal...u-need-to-know

I’m not at all anti vaccine. I was in the military and received many.

Sorry to hear about your daughter and I hope she recovered.

[goboatingnow]

Sorry to hear about your daughter and I hope she recovered.

thanks yes she did , Delta was more sickening, Omicron was mild

[Montanan]

Appears to be no increase in hospitalizations from Omicron BA.2 versus BA.1
BA.2 appears to be about 130% more contagious than BA.1 and is growing as a percentage of cases.

The first new study comes from South Africa, where BA.2 grew rapidly, rising from 27% to 86% of new Covid-19 infections over the course of a single week in February. Researchers looked at cases tied to more than 95,000 positive Covid-19 tests.

Clinical severity of Omicron sub-lineage BA.2 compared to BA.1 in South Africa https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...2271030v1.full

Among these, roughly equal proportions of people were hospitalized for their infections -- roughly 3.6% of people who had presumed BA.2 infections compared to 3.4% of those with signs infections caused by BA.1.

After researchers accounted for things that might influence a person's risk of severe disease, such as older age, they found no difference in the risk for hospitalization between people infected by BA.1 and those infected by BA.2. Roughly one-quarter of people hospitalized with both BA.1 and BA.2 infections were fully vaccinated.

Those findings echo hospitalization studies from Denmark, where BA.2 is also the predominant cause of Covid-19 infections.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/med...?ocid=msedgntp

[Exile]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Based on the 5 or 6 heart related questions they asked me before giving me a booster, the vaccine can absolutely be dangerous to some. In the same way that Covid is extremely dangerous to some. Yes I know the percentages are way higher for Covid than the vaccines.

I think there is much acrimony and disagreement resulting from the absolutes so many of us seem to throw at these issues. I knew there was risk from the vaccines but felt there was more risk of a bad outcome from Covid.

Thank you for this dose of reason, as well as respect for the sentiments of others. (I came to the same conclusion in favor of getting vaccinated, fwiw.) Absolutism in the face of complex issues is an all too easy and lazy path, often accompanied by an absence of critical thinking and tolerance for the opinions of others. But then believing that one's opinion is all that matters is a prerequisite for absolutism, is it not?

Of course, nothing is quite as grating as the combination of sanctimony and hypocrisy that we so often see surrounding this and other issues, regardless of what any of us may believe about the vaccines:

Originally Posted by Montanan

Greg:

My stated growing intolerance for the unvaccinated and diminishing empathy for unvaccinated person that become ill from Covid is not hating on people or directing hostility.

Whereas calling a forum member a shill would be hating on a person and directing hostility towards them.

Please try to remain civil with your posts and on point.

Yes, please do. A good start might be to provide an example for yourself, as opposed to preaching to others. Just like making sure you protect yourself from Covid if you are vulnerable (as you have repeatedly said you are), as opposed to hating on people choosing not to get vaccinated, and whose beliefs and decisionmaking you choose to berate but ultimately cannot control.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Montanan - these are your words:

‘To this day, I find it hard to accept the reality that so many people can be so damned stupid and belligerent.
There is freedom and then there is freedumb. Far too much Freedumb has been community spread. Just saying and believing.’

If you don’t think calling people damned stupid and belligerent is not ‘hating on people’, you are kidding yourself. Your self righteousness wears thin on us who choose not to get vaccinated. Show me the long term data proving this vaccine is safe. You can not because it doesn’t exist. You have chosen to be part of a grand experiment, I do not but have remained healthy.

Hard to imagine, especially at this late date, that anyone who has declined to get vaccinated could possibly be swayed otherwise by such derogatory comments. But swaying others isn't really the motivation here, is it?

[Zippee]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Greg:

My stated growing intolerance for the unvaccinated and diminishing empathy for unvaccinated person that become ill from Covid is not hating on people or directing hostility.

Whereas calling a forum member a shill would be hating on a person and directing hostility towards them.

Please try to remain civil with your posts and on point.

Originally Posted by Buster Brown

Montanan - these are your words:

‘To this day, I find it hard to accept the reality that so many people can be so damned stupid and belligerent.
There is freedom and then there is freedumb. Far too much Freedumb has been community spread. Just saying and believing.’

If you don’t think calling people damned stupid and belligerent is not ‘hating on people’, you are kidding yourself. Your self righteousness wears thin on us who choose not to get vaccinated. Show me the long term data proving this vaccine is safe. You can not because it doesn’t exist. You have chosen to be part of a grand experiment, I do not but have remained healthy.

Oh my.

This newbie poster really can't distinguish a general observation of "so many people" from calling specific forum members "shills"? Really? To the contrary, he can, but doesn't seem to care. Montanan politely requested that he be more civil, and to avoid calling out specific members as "shills".

Our newbie did indeed call specific members "shills" - Mr. Brown, you should apologize, period.

Instead your diversionary response completely ignored Montanan, but rather diverted to some pretzel logic in order to further label Montanon a "hater". Do you really think the intelligent readers here will buy such unapologetic and uncivil commentary?

They won't. Is your goal to foment engagement by attacking and deprecating others? To create controversy? To create chaos? Seems so. Going to apologize? Why do I think not?

[boatman61]

From a 'Newbie' poster who claims long membership under a variety of names yet.. to my knowledge changing ones name does not involve changing ones joining CF date.
So.. you either have multiple identities which is against the rules or have been banned in the past and re-joined under a new ID using a new device.