Some New Science on Virus Transmission on Airplanes

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A couple of key items can drastically impact the spread:
- What way do you sneeze? If you are 1ft away but turn away from the person and sneeze in the opposite direction, you drastically reduce the transmission likelihood compared to sneezing in their direction.
- Wind/airflow can drastically impact spread. If you are 6ft apart and sneeze into a 15kt wind, someone upwind is highly unlikely to get hit. On the other hand 10ft spacing and sneezing downwind towards someone, may be worse than 6ft with no wind because the wind carries it to them before it can dissipate and fall to the ground.

+1
To carry the 1st question a little further, how do you sneeze?

If you know a sneeze is coming on, get your handkerchief/paper towel/tissue out and cover your mouth/nose to diminish the spray rather than openly cough/sneeze. If nothing else, possibly use your cupped hands to cover your face. Yes, you'll want to wash/disinfect your hands after either, but better than spreading more germs by contact/touching things w/your hands.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bill O

+1
To carry the 1st question a little further, how do you sneeze?

If you know a sneeze is coming on, get your handkerchief/paper towel/tissue out and cover your mouth/nose to diminish the spray rather than openly cough/sneeze. If nothing else, possibly use your cupped hands to cover your face. Yes, you'll want to wash/disinfect your hands after either, but better than spreading more germs by contact/touching things w/your hands.

Coughing or sneezing into your hands just makes your hands large virus-spreading swabs. That's why we cough and sneeze into our elbows.


I'm guessing that physical distancing, proper coughing/sneezing, staying home when even slightly sick, good hand hygiene (including never coughing into your hands), masking in public indoor spaces -- surely if you get this mix of measures right, with nearly everyone doing all of it nearly all the time, this has got to be more powerful than any lockdown.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Coughing or sneezing into your hands just makes your hands large virus-spreading swabs. That's why we cough and sneeze into our elbows.


I'm guessing that physical distancing, proper coughing/sneezing, staying home when even slightly sick, good hand hygiene (including never coughing into your hands), masking in public indoor spaces -- surely if you get this mix of measures right, with nearly everyone doing all of it nearly all the time, this has got to be more powerful than any lockdown.

Really, never seen anyone cough/sneeze into their elbow. While I know its a CDC recommendation, you should wash/disinfect your hands after even using a tissue etc. (and as I added if you used your cupped hands).
Most people carry spray disinfectants, so think it would be easier to clean/disinfect your hands immediately vs. your clothing (which you probably wouldn't do).

My real point was that many just cough/sneeze outwardly w/o trying to contain it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Really, never seen anyone cough/sneeze into their elbow. While I know its a CDC recommendation, you should wash/disinfect your hands after even using a tissue etc. (and as I added if you used your cupped hands).

Really? Boy, this just shows how similar we can be, yet so different. Coughing/sneezing into the elbow has been standard practice in all the places I wonder in Canada for many years now. Not sure when the practice began -- maybe around the SARS event that hit Toronto so hard. But it's definitely the norm.

Originally Posted by Bill O

My real point was that many just cough/sneeze outwardly w/o trying to contain it.

Point well taken . Any sort of containment is better than letting it fly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Really? Boy, this just shows how similar we can be, yet so different. Coughing/sneezing into the elbow has been standard practice in all the places I wonder in Canada for many years now. Not sure when the practice began -- maybe around the SARS event that hit Toronto so hard. But it's definitely the norm.

Canada is ahead of us. But elbow-coughing has become nearly universal here in Northern Europe, in the course of this year. I would say even that coughing into your hand is a bit of a faux pas. I think it's very good practice.


Also there is a significant taboo against shaking hands, so the elbow-bump has become very widespread in business situations. I'm not sure this is such a good thing. "Pressing the flesh" can be full of meaning -- I'm not sure that weren't not damaging business and human relations somewhat by giving up handshakes, which could be sanitized pretty easily with alcohol gel afterwards. Should be many orders of magnitude fewer viruses on the hands of a person who doesn't cough into them, than in your coughs.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Point well taken . Any sort of containment is better than letting it fly.

Absolutely.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Really? Boy, this just shows how similar we can be, yet so different. Coughing/sneezing into the elbow has been standard practice in all the places I wonder in Canada for many years now. Not sure when the practice began -- maybe around the SARS event that hit Toronto so hard. But it's definitely the norm.

Haven't seen it so much in the US. Then again since I've worked at home for the last 2 decades or going out on the boat for long periods keeps us isolated. So maybe it is a standard practice and I haven't noticed.

I'll need to watch people to see if this is so. Generally, I see many doing nothing to contain and maybe this is a good reason why the US is plague central.

[SalingSue]

This is news?
I’m not even a bishop..I mean “expert” and I could tell you that is a very obvious outcome.


Also you don’t need thermal cameras to see some coughing and not let them on the flight.

Flying while sick is (and always was) a dick move.

Thankfully for anyone well enough to fly, it’s not exactly a deadly virus.

Originally Posted by Bill O

Haven't seen it so much in the US. Then again since I've worked at home for the last 2 decades or going out on the boat for long periods keeps us isolated. So maybe it is a standard practice and I haven't noticed.

I'll need to watch people to see if this is so. Generally, I see many doing nothing to contain and maybe this is a good reason why the US is plague central.

It’s a thing for civilized people, or down your shirt, into a napkin, etc, always has been, on the same line as not putting your shoes on the furniture.

When you see someone who doesn’t do this, they often fall into one of a few unfortunate demographics

[endlesspursuit]

Originally Posted by dannc

No, one should be vaccinating the people most likely to die. The vast majority of people dying from COVID are the elderly and especially those in nursing homes. They should get the vaccine since they are most likely to die from the virus.

But health care workers and other first responders HAVE to get the vaccine first since they are more likely to be exposed, are more likely to be taken out of service and spread the virus. If there are no first responders and health care workers, then the death rate will soar.

After the health care workers and first responders get the vaccine then it should be the must vulnerable group who are dying. Which means the elderly.

One of the two failures in this whole mess is not being able to keep the virus out of nursing homes, which may be all but impossible, and not providing N95 or surgical masks to the general population. Nine months into this mess, and no country that I am aware, has made the effort to increase production of N95 or surgical masks for everyone to use.

Later,
Dan

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Not quite a fit for the thread, but if you remove "airplanes" from the title...

New study of donated blood samples shows significant Covid presence in the US in December 2019. This follows a study last month that had similar findings in Italy last fall. Once vetted and confirmed could change the picture a great deal.

It's going to be interesting.

I have been saying that for months. Covid was spread all over the world in November and December. Wuhan airport was in full swing at that time. 2 million passengers a month on average fly in and out of there.

[GordMay]

I first recall learning to cough/sneeze into my elbow, in the late 60s, probably during the Hong Kong Flu outbreak.

The 1957 Influenza, dubbed “Asian flu”, outbreak was not caused by a coronavirus (the first human coronavirus would not be discovered until 1965), but by an influenza virus, the H2N2 influenza subtype. However, in 1957, no one could be sure that the virus, that had been isolated in Hong Kong, was a new pandemic strain, or simply a descendant of the previous 1918–19 pandemic influenza virus*. Worldwide, the pandemic would result in more than 1 million deaths, including 80,000 citizens in the US.

The Hong Kong Influenza pandemic, of 1968, was caused by an influenza A (H3N2) virus The estimated number of deaths was 1 to 4 million worldwide, and about 100,000 in the United States, with half the deaths among individuals younger than 65 years (the reverse of COVID-19).
There were few school closures and businesses, for the most, continued to operate as normal.
The H3N2 virus continues to circulate worldwide as a seasonal influenza A virus.

* The 1918–19 influenza pandemic, caused at least 50 million deaths,

“Influenza Pandemics of the 20th Century” ~ by Edwin D. Kilbourne (NCBI)
➥ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291411/

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Coughing or sneezing into your hands just makes your hands large virus-spreading swabs. That's why we cough and sneeze into our elbows.


I'm guessing that physical distancing, proper coughing/sneezing, staying home when even slightly sick, good hand hygiene (including never coughing into your hands), masking in public indoor spaces -- surely if you get this mix of measures right, with nearly everyone doing all of it nearly all the time, this has got to be more powerful than any lockdown.

Exactly! So why is it so hard to get people behind this, especially in the US? No one wants to lock down, but people whine about their rights being taken away when asked to wear a mask or stand at a safe distance from others. We know that the combination of these measures works to halt the spread, yet we see so much resistance to complying with them for a few months...

[busters]

anyone any idea when I can fly to Canada, ( UK resident,) due to the borders being closed at the present time?
Desperately waiting to visit a very good friend.

[NedX]

Dockhead, since we're on the subject, I've been wondering.

How do people handle eating on flights?

On a ten -hour flight, if everyone gets two meals, that means the masks are off, and they are breathing, and therefore releasing particles into the air, which, given aerosol spread, are hanging up there for other passengers to breathe.

That'd be mitigated somewhat if the circulation on planes were good, but the effectiveness of any HVAC system depends on the size of the particles it is intended to filter out. Early on in the pandemic, when people thought of SARS-CoV-2 as being transmitted via droplets expelled during a cough (and by touching surfaces contaminated by such droplets), the conventional knowledge was that the particles were 5-10 microns, which a modern HVAC system can be very effective in filtering out.

Now, the sense is that SARS-Co-2 aerosol particles are < 5 microns. Conclusion: Personally, I'd get on a plane only if everyone were wearing masks that they can't take off for the duration of the flight. Luckily I have the luxury of not having to.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bill O

Really, never seen anyone cough/sneeze into their elbow. While I know its a CDC recommendation, you should wash/disinfect your hands after even using a tissue etc. (and as I added if you used your cupped hands).
Most people carry spray disinfectants, so think it would be easier to clean/disinfect your hands immediately vs. your clothing (which you probably wouldn't do).

My real point was that many just cough/sneeze outwardly w/o trying to contain it.

My point in bringing up sneezing wasn't to suggest you should sneeze AT someone but how the direction and airflow can drastically impact the 6ft rule.

While I don't sneeze into my elbow...not because I'm against it but just by reflex it doesn't happen (I should probably work on that)...but if I'm out and wearing a jacket, I do often pull one side up and sneeze into the inside. I haven't done any studies to confirm but it seems to contain it pretty well and as long as you aren't reaching in to pick pocket me, should be pretty low risk. (of course not a really wet snotty sneeze)

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by busters

anyone any idea when I can fly to Canada, ( UK resident,) due to the borders being closed at the present time?
Desperately waiting to visit a very good friend.

I believe you can now.

I know flights are open between Canada and the USA. There just may be some quarantine rules going into Canada.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I believe you can now.

I know flights are open between Canada and the USA. There just may be some quarantine rules going into Canada.

No, you cannot...

Unless you are a Canadian citizen or permanent resident or a (relatively) close relative...

Unless you can demonstrate the visit is for ESSENTIAL business....