The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Exactly.



But he is right to talk about freedoms and we must not forget the crucial importance of individual freedoms in liberal democracies.

Agreed and along with talking about changing freedoms and one needs also to talk about changing responsibilities.

Some seem to think there is no need for change, that society should simply operate as it did in the pre-Covid19 times. They expect to maintain the rights and responsibilities that existed before and it is only some imagined fear or "the government" or 'big Pharma' or a conspiracy or some such that has impacted their lives...



It is worldwide novel virus and it has altered society forever - everywhere.

To think otherwise is simply putting one's head in the sand.

One can understand a toddler spitting the dummy about disruptive change but adults need to behave like adults if they want to remain part of civil society.

Yes, conversations about the new world order need to be had and some of those conversations will be difficult but to say "I not changing 'cause I've a god given right to stay the same" doesn't cut the mustard and those who think otherwise are fools unto themselves and a burden for others.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Fake news? The same thing is reported in some Ozzian news outlets:

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nat...27-p593kz.html

https://www.news.com.au/finance/quee...43d40b1c9b20d6

"According to a spokesman at SPER, the methods of enforcement “may include garnishing bank accounts or wages, registering charges over property, or suspending driver’s licences”.

Doesn't sound like fake news to me.

If you look carefully the headlines don’t really match the story. Both articles share the same general wording, suggesting they were lifted either from a press release or a news feed, but both present different headlines with the more rational news.com.au article running a headline more in keeping with the lifted news item.

The headline in the Brisbane rag reek of click bait, aimed at the sort of person who does not read the actual article content.

[Wotname]

Funny thing about Australia, the locals expect you to pay your fines and debts - unless of course, it is the post turtle's robo-debt...

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Fake news? The same thing is reported in some Ozzian news outlets:

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nat...27-p593kz.html

https://www.news.com.au/finance/quee...43d40b1c9b20d6

"According to a spokesman at SPER, the methods of enforcement “may include garnishing bank accounts or wages, registering charges over property, or suspending driver’s licences”.

Doesn't sound like fake news to me.

Note that the original daily mail article referenced and objected to by ozsailor is the worst offender, following its outrageous headline immediately with the words

“Queenslanders who received fines for breaking Covid-19 rules risk having their homes seized and bank accounts frozen in a government crackdown to collect $5.2 million in repayments. “

Note the words “risk having their homes seized..”

Doesn’t exactly match the bullish-t headline.

No, this sort of reporting is aimed squarely at the morons who think they are informed because they read five headlines this week. Unfortunately, as amply demonstrated here in this thread, there is no shortage of them.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

This kerfuffle with the Scottich covid deaths is the same basic error over and over again -- confusing total numbers with RATES.


Sure, there are more people in hospital who are vaccinated, than are not -- BECAUSE 90% OF ADULTS ARE VACCINATED


When you take that into account, you could be 10x less likely to be in hospital, because you're vaccinated, and there could still be a greater number of vaccinated people in hospital. People, this is really basic.


In fact, the SAME data show that unvaccinated are about twice as likely to be in hospital as vaccinated. How people call pull out of this, that unvaccinated are less affected -- beggars the imagination.

Originally Posted by Wotname

Agreed and along with talking about changing freedoms and one needs also to talk about changing responsibilities.

Some seem to think there is no need for change, that society should simply operate as it did in the pre-Covid19 times. They expect to maintain the rights and responsibilities that existed before and it is only some imagined fear or "the government" or 'big Pharma' or a conspiracy or some such that has impacted their lives...



It is novel virus and it has altered society forever - everywhere.

To think otherwise is simply putting one's head in the sand.

One can understand a toddler spitting the dummy about disruptive change but adults need to behave like adults if they want to remain part of civil society.

Yes, conversations about the new world order need to be had and some of those conversations will be difficult but to say "I not changing 'cause I've a god given right to stay the same" doesn't cut the mustard and those who think otherwise are fools unto themselves and a burden for others.

Bugga the 'Dog given rights'... or those 'given by the state'..
That's for the herd animals...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Yep, I exercise my freedom to show that I give a sh-t about the elderly and vulnerable in my society by getting vaccinated. Statistically, I’m not at particularly high risk, but many that I care about or for are.

My hat is off to you, sir.


Protect yourself, protect your loved ones, protect society -- get vaccinated. There is not even any tension here between individual freedom, and interests of society as a whole. The only tension is between scientific truth, on the one hand, and irrational fear and misinformation, on the other.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Note that the original daily mail article referenced and objected to by ozsailor is the worst offender, following its outrageous headline immediately with the words

“Queenslanders who received fines for breaking Covid-19 rules risk having their homes seized and bank accounts frozen in a government crackdown to collect $5.2 million in repayments. “

Note the words “risk having their homes seized..”

Doesn’t exactly match the bullish-t headline.

No, this sort of reporting is aimed squarely at the morons who think they are informed because they read five headlines this week. Unfortunately, as amply demonstrated here in this thread, there is no shortage of them.

OK, but whoever it's aimed towards, it's not false. The state has said itself that putting a charge against property is one of the enforcement options. Get a charge put on your home, and you do certainly "risk having your home seized". I'm not really sure what you're objecting to; it's not even an exaggeration.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, but whoever it's aimed towards, it's not false. The state has said itself that putting a charge against property is one of the enforcement options. Get a charge put on your home, and you do certainly "risk having your home seized". I'm not really sure what you're objecting to; it's not even an exaggeration.

One step away from 'Charge into certain death or get shot for cowardice'..
You Will Obey...

Democracy is under threat across the world with a large number of countries sliding towards authoritarianism amid the Covid-19 pandemic, a Stockholm-based intergovernmental body said in a new report.

Authoritarian regimes are growing in number, and their leaders are acting ever more brazenly, according to the International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance (IDEA).


The coronavirus pandemic has provided additional tools and justification for repressive tactics and the silencing of dissent in countries as diverse as Belarus, Cuba, Myanmar, Nicaragua and Venezuela, the report said.

"More countries than ever are suffering from democratic erosion," International IDEA said in its 2021 study on the state of democracy, relying on data compiled since 1975.

"In fact, 70 per cent of the global population now live either in non-democratic regimes or in democratically backsliding countries," the report said.

Right-wing leaders weaponising the pandemic to silence critics, large scale crackdowns on dissent, and disinformation used to divide societies are mainly to blame for the rise in authoritarianism, the report said.

The 34-nation organization said that as of August 2021, 64 per cent of countries had taken actions to curb Covid-19 that it considers “disproportionate, unnecessary or illegal".

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, but whoever it's aimed towards, it's not false. The state has said itself that putting a charge against property is one of the enforcement options. Get a charge put on your home, and you do certainly "risk having your home seized". I'm not really sure what you're objecting to; it's not even an exaggeration.

I fail to see your problem, Dockhead.

1. People had chosen to enter Australia and given undertakings to pay for the quarantine. They have not done so. They have incurred a debt.

The Queensland government has an established debt recovery process that is used against people who fail to pay traffic fines etc.

Who would have it any other way?

The Aus electorate has tolerated govt efforts to reclaim government pensions and other welfare payments made by govt but later judged by govt to be excessive.

2. Upthread you wrote:

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But he is right to talk about freedoms and we must not forget the crucial importance of individual freedoms in liberal democracies.

You are assuming that Aus is a "liberal democracy", however that is defined.

The Australian constitution makes no claim to be a "liberal democracy", only to be a constitutional monarchy.

The Aus constitution (as I've written upthread) only mentions three things that approach being a "freedom". The Aus High Court has suggested a fourth freedom, the right to political communication, is implicit. That suggestion remains, but it is not uncontested.

The Aus constitution was written with reference both to the US constitution (and after the amendments that amount to the US Bill of Rights) and the legal instruments that together pass for a constitution in the UK. The Aus constitution writers chose not to include content associated with the US Bill of Rights.

So whatever you or anyone else think about the nature of a "liberal democracy", Aus makes no claim to be one in essence. I welcome you identifying the individual freedoms which you say are "crucially important" and which are guaranteed somewhere in the Aus constitution.

Sure, some politicians and some citizens might chatter about the superficial existence of "liberal democracy with Australian characteristics" but that's about as meaningful as propaganda about "socialism with Chinese characteristics".

Aus has joined international conventions about human rights and refugees, to name a couple. The Aus electorate has not been moved when Aus has ignored those conventions.

White Australians, the majority, have cared little when Aus governments (federal and state) have ignored human rights for its indigenes. The white 'pfellas ignore the history of genocide in Aus (e.g. the almost complete extermination of the Palawa, the targeted killing of aboriginal lawmen and the system of governance) and continuing casual acts genocide (e.g. deaths in custody, the removal of non-white children from their parents), the denial of rights of property and wages for indigenes, and the continuing casual acts of destruction of non-white 'pfella cultural heritage.

Further, most Aus citizens know as little as you do about the Aus constitution (and many know more about the supposed freedoms in the US constitution).

[GordMay]

According to the Freedom House Report for 2019 [1], Australia can boast a position of sixth, out of 86 independent nation states, that display the qualities of a liberal democracy

[1] ➥ https://www.democracy2025.gov.au/doc...25-report6.pdf

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

OK, but whoever it's aimed towards, it's not false. The state has said itself that putting a charge against property is one of the enforcement options. Get a charge put on your home, and you do certainly "risk having your home seized". I'm not really sure what you're objecting to; it's not even an exaggeration.

Oh come on mate, I expect better from you. Of course it’s an exaggeration. Look properly.

The headline reads:

“Thousands of Australians with unpaid fines for breaking Covid rules have their homes seized, bank accounts raided and licences cancelled as government chases $5.2million”

It is utter and total ********. Thousands of Australians HAVE NOT had their homes seized. And, as I said before, the article even backs away from that rubbish headline in the FIRST line of the article itself.

Ok, it may well be that the government has that authority but I’d be pretty surprised if they ever USED it. State governments are not normally known for suicidal behaviour (tho the current Victorian mob seem to be getting close.)

They have the same authority for any unpaid fines, taxes etc, I assume Queensland is at least similar in this regard to other states.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Oh come on mate, I expect better from you. Of course it’s an exaggeration. Look properly.

The headline reads:

“Thousands of Australians with unpaid fines for breaking Covid rules have their homes seized, bank accounts raided and licences cancelled as government chases $5.2million”

It is utter and total ********. Thousands of Australians HAVE NOT had their homes seized. And, as I said before, the article even backs away from that rubbish headline in the FIRST line of the article itself.

Ok, it may well be that the government has that authority but I’d be pretty surprised if they ever USED it. State governments are not normally known for suicidal behaviour (tho the current Victorian mob seem to be getting close.)

They have the same authority for any unpaid fines, taxes etc, I assume Queensland is at least similar in this regard to other states.

OK, if the headline said "HAVE their homes seized" rather than "MAY have their homes seized", then I agree with you. Then yes, that appears to be false.

[Alan Mighty]

If we put the Covid-19 issue to one side for a moment and just focus on:

Originally Posted by GILow

Ok, it may well be that the government has that authority but I’d be pretty surprised if they ever USED it. State governments are not normally known for suicidal behaviour (tho the current Victorian mob seem to be getting close.)

I think it's not quite 40 years since the QLD state govt did exactly that: dispossess citizens of their houses and land. No protest against the premier (Joh Bjelke-Petersen) in the mainstream media (which depended on government notices and job advertisements for its profitability). One or two small street protests (put down with extreme prejudice by the noble uniformed thugs of the QLD Police Service, always careful to remove their identifying numbers - in case they might be damaged or lost - when gripping a truncheon). No protest vote by the electorate at the subsequent state election (malapportionment of votes to rural seats helped, but the white 'pfella electorate just could not be bothered).

To cut the long story short: QLD premier Joh Bjelke-Petersen wanted to gift land on Cape York and Mornington Island to three or four bauxite miners (Comalco, Billington etc). The land was occupied by people of the Wik nation, initially in the form of a community managed by a Christian church mission. Bjelke-Petersen and his govt passed legislation gifting the land to the miners. The Wik people of Aurukun took suit in the QLD Supreme Court which found that the Wik people had the right to challenge the mining application on their land. Bjelke-Petersen appealed the case to the UK Privy Council, which found in his favour and against the Wik people (forum shopping works, no surprise). Aus Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser passed legislation that would protect the community of Aurukun. Bjelke-Petersen countered with state legislation that converted the community into a local government, putting it outside the reach of Fraser's legislation. Fraser gave up, preferring to keep relations with a state premier than to stand up for any notion of the "rights" of Aus citizens. John Koowarta, a Minychanam-Wik man, took suit in the Aus High Court, citing the Aus Racial Discrimination Act. The High Court of Aus found in Koowarta's favour, judging that Bjelke-Petersen had racially discriminated against Koowarta by refusing to grant him the title to his land that he had gained via the Aus federal Land Fund Commission. Bjelke-Petersen knew that land rights for indigenes were in the future, so he struck first with a decisive king hit: he (and his mate Russ Hinze) gazetted the land as a state national park, dispossessing the Wik people of land (and houses and even a hospital) without compensation.

I'm sure you know the famous quotation from Martin Niemöller. Meditate upon it.

For the High Court case Koowarta v Bjelke-Petersen (1982), see: Koowarta v Bjelke-Petersen [1982] HCA 27; (1982) 153 CLR 168 (11 May 1982)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by GILow

Oh come on mate, I expect better from you. Of course it’s an exaggeration. Look properly.

The headline reads:

“Thousands of Australians with unpaid fines for breaking Covid rules have their homes seized, bank accounts raided and licences cancelled as government chases $5.2million”

It is utter and total ********. Thousands of Australians HAVE NOT had their homes seized. And, as I said before, the article even backs away from that rubbish headline in the FIRST line of the article itself.

Ok, it may well be that the government has that authority but I’d be pretty surprised if they ever USED it. State governments are not normally known for suicidal behaviour (tho the current Victorian mob seem to be getting close.)

They have the same authority for any unpaid fines, taxes etc, I assume Queensland is at least similar in this regard to other states.

I think this is all rather old news that has been discussed before.
The majority of the debt is - as I recall- for hotel quarantine and in each case is in the thousands. Its not just a $50 fine for pharting after curfew.
Show me any jurisdiction in the world that doesn't have the right to come the heavy when recovering debts owed to the state.
Seizing all your assets would come into play when you had dudded the state tens or hundreds of thousands in avoiding taxes or similar.

[El Pinguino]

My post 1654 covers this, 29th October
'Quote:
Originally Posted by captmikem View Post
Thousands of Australians with unpaid fines for breaking Covid rules have their homes seized, bank accounts raided and licences cancelled as government chases $5.2million

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ueensland.html'


Rather than posting alarmist rubbish from the Daily Wail you could at least go to the source of the story, the Brisbane Times https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/nat...27-p593kz.html

Also note that much of the 'covid debt' involves unpaid hotel quarantine fees.
'By October 8, 44,350 invoices had been issued for hotel quarantine in Queensland, of which 10.8 per cent were significantly overdue. Those who did not pay up, or successfully applied for a waiver, would also be referred to debt collectors.'
What would you suggest the state does with this debt? Which by the way does not involve fines but actual money which the state has paid on people's behalf to the hotel owners.

That sensationalist photo from the Wail that you posted has nothing to do with the story and was not even taken in Queensland. It was taken on St Kilda Beach, Melbourne, Victoria, some months ago and shows a rabid anti-vaxx ratbag being taken into custody for breaking the law.

You really must try harder.'