The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's exactly what Tegnell in Sweden was saying at the beginning of the pandemic.

If it's true, then vaccination or immunity through infection is really the only thing to do about it.

I am taking the liberty of correcting this for you .

Most youngsters are either asymptomatic or minimally affected with COVID-19. Why expose them to the risks of vaccination with vaccines that have not been tested long term and are so new that we have nothing to compare them to, particularly if infection actually invokes a higher level of immunity than vaccination, as is now thought.

This higher level of immunity may particularly apply to any new variants since post infection immunity is conferred to the entire virus, not just one of the virus’s proteins that may vary with mutation.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by GILow

SWL, much of what you have written makes good sense, but I think you are missing some of the nuances relevant to Australia.

The initial focus of the vaccine rollout was very much on the older and more vulnerable members of the population. That rollout started reasonably well, but at some point the first cases of the clotting disorder appeared, here and overseas, at which point the whole rollout really lost momentum.

I’ll avoid the finger pointing all I can, people can argue who is to blame for the slow down until the cows come home. Some will say the government, some will say media, some social media... the list goes on.

But I think it is fair to say Australia was suddenly a victim of its own success in keeping the original strains at bay. People simply did not feel they were at risk from the virus.

Therefore, the well publicised but very minor risk of clotting was perceived as the bigger risk.

Hence very bad vaccine hesitancy.

I put myself in that group. When I was only eligible for AZ I decided I would sail back up to Melbourne for my shot rather than risk it in Tasmania where, rumour has it, there is no functional haematology unit. (As it was, they suddenly made my age bracket eligible for Pfizer and I was able to arrange my first does in three days.)

Now we have an outbreak and there is a scramble for the vaccine in Australia and we are playing catch-up. People finally feel at risk.

But some of the age timelines had been put in play, the doors had already been opened to younger cohorts getting the vaccine before everything went to crap (I think we’d got down to the 40 year olds being eligible by then) just in a desperate attempt to get SOMEONE to get vaccinated and stop the stuff rotting on the shelf.

Now it’s a kind of free-for-all frenzy with no real coherence. They are playing whack-a-mole with various age groups as they become over represented in the transmission stats in various areas. Too little, too late, of course, but it’s kind of understandable.

I think our hospitals are mostly prepared in the bigger states, but the smaller states are probably in trouble if it gets out of hand. But the smaller states have been struggling to some degree with under resourced health systems for decades, Covid really hasn’t changed that.

Hi GILow

As an Aussie with elderly relatives in Australia I have been carefully following the situation there.

I disagree with your comment that “the initial focus of the vaccine rollout was very much on the older and more vulnerable members of the population. That rollout started reasonably well”.

Customs and immigration and quarantine workers were the first to receive vaccinations, along with the prime minister and other politicians of course, plus a host of other groups before the those at greatest risk of dying were included, with the exception of one elderly lady for the publicity .

The rollout for residents in nursing homes was downright pathetic despite the vast majority of the deaths in Victoria’s outbreak mid last year (and actually most of the deaths in Australia) having been associated with nursing homes. None of the residents in the nursing home one of my family member was in had been vaccinated in June of this year even though vaccine had been available in February and Scott Morrison had received a Pfizer dose way back then.

I agree fully that “I think it is fair to say Australia was suddenly a victim of its own success in keeping the original strains at bay. People simply did not feel they were at risk from the virus.” This is still the case in some Australian states. I feel frustrated knowing almost with certainty that this will come back to bite them.

There is, however, not enough doses available in Australia to vaccinate all the people they are currently available to. Why offer them to 12 year olds when 50+ year olds currently have difficulties booking appointments in some states? I am speaking from the experience of hearing what is actually occurring for friends and relatives, not off the top of my head.

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

PS For the elderly who have been scared off from receiving AstraZeneca following the hyped up publicity regarding blood clots, if saving lives is the main concern, why not offer the oldies Pfizer doses rather than coercing youngsters to receive this vaccine.

I think there is a LOT wrong with Australia’s vaccine rollout.

SWL

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The UK...

... I don’t think any other nation have achieved this as well.

SWL, if you're referring to % of population fully vaccinated, UK at 64%, ranks 24th. For 1 shot, at 72%, is 28th.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...bution/#global

Singapore for example has vaccinated 77% of the elderly (over 60) by July 31 and have opened shots to kids over 12.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

SWL, if you're referring to % of population fully vaccinated, UK at 64%, ranks 24th. For 1 shot, at 72%, is 28th.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...bution/#global

Singapore for example has vaccinated 77% of the elderly (over 60) by July 31 and have opened shots to kids over 12.

Wow.!!! that blows one away, and with a population of 5,903,769 to boot.. makes one wonder how they managed it..

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by fivecapes

SWL, if you're referring to % of population fully vaccinated, UK at 64%, ranks 24th. For 1 shot, at 72%, is 28th.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/c...bution/#global

Singapore for example has vaccinated 77% of the elderly (over 60) by July 31 and have opened shots to kids over 12.

I did not mean success at vaccinating the highest % of the population, although the UK was right up there during the first few months, second only to Israel.

I meant success at targeting the most vulnerable first. The UK had a set policy to prioritise the vulnerable that they followed without deviation. I don’t know of any other country with a high population that managed to do this. Even Israel eventually achieved its high count by sticking needles in any arms that presented.

My view is that once the vulnerable are vaccinated, doses should be donated to poorer countries that cannot achieve this. This is a worldwide problem and I think there should be a race (and in fact a moral obligation) to vaccinate all the vulnerable, not the highest percentage in any one country.

SWL

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Wow.!!! that blows one away, and with a population of 5,903,769 to boot.. makes one wonder how they managed it..

Probably the same as how Portugal at 73% (whadaya know!), Belgium and Spain at 71%, Denmark at 72% did it....

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I did not mean success at vaccinating the highest % of the population, although the UK was right up there during the first few months, second only to Israel.

I'm pretty sure most countries targeted their vaccine rollout at the vulnerable first, UK is not unique, or I'm not sure how to rank their performance in that regard. Percentage of population, with expressed priority for the vulnerable, is probably not a bad gauge.

Anyway, does one try to achieve as high a percentage as possible to possibly prevent mutations and gain some sense of herd immunity, or slow down to share limited vaccines inventories with the less fortunate countries while extending your own exposure?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

. . .My view is that once the vulnerable are vaccinated, doses should be donated to poorer countries that cannot achieve this. This is a worldwide problem and I think there should be a race (and in fact a moral obligation) to vaccinate all the vulnerable, not the highest percentage in any one country.. .

Here, here.


COVAX is getting more and more vaccines as developed countries full up their supply chains, but it's still a drop in the bucket. This is the next thing which we have not thought enough about which is going to bite us in the posterior.



We are already experiencing something like normal life in Northern Europe which should be almost fully normal within another couple of months, but we will not be unscathed by the horrors which will continue in poor countries for, at this rate, years to come. What we have done to address that so far is absolutely pathetic in my view. The COVAX plan was for 2 billion doses -- enough for only 1/8 of the world population -- during 2021, and it's not looking now like even this modest plan will be fulfilled


What is happening in the developing world will have far reaching consequences for all of us, and none of them good.


I don't think we should stop with the vulnerable in our own countries (we don't agree about that), but we should in any case be paying far more attention to what is happening in poorer countries.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi GILow

As an Aussie with elderly relatives in Australia I have been carefully following the situation there.

I disagree with your comment that “the initial focus of the vaccine rollout was very much on the older and more vulnerable members of the population. That rollout started reasonably well”.

Customs and immigration and quarantine workers were the first to receive vaccinations, along with the prime minister and other politicians of course, plus a host of other groups before the those at greatest risk of dying were included, with the exception of one elderly lady for the publicity .

The rollout for residents in nursing homes was downright pathetic despite the vast majority of the deaths in Victoria’s outbreak mid last year (and actually most of the deaths in Australia) having been associated with nursing homes. None of the residents in the nursing home one of my family member was in had been vaccinated in June of this year even though vaccine had been available in February and Scott Morrison had received a Pfizer dose way back then.

I agree fully that “I think it is fair to say Australia was suddenly a victim of its own success in keeping the original strains at bay. People simply did not feel they were at risk from the virus.” This is still the case in some Australian states. I feel frustrated knowing almost with certainty that this will come back to bite them.

There is, however, not enough doses available in Australia to vaccinate all the people they are currently available to. Why offer them to 12 year olds when 50+ year olds currently have difficulties booking appointments in some states? I am speaking from the experience of hearing what is actually occurring for friends and relatives, not off the top of my head.

SWL

Well yes, the quarantine guys were the first, and that made sense at the time. They were hoping to keep the virus out as a first priority. As it turns out, the vaccines haven’t worked in that way, but hindsight is always so clear.

As for the nursing homes... my partner is an aged care nurse and her workplace had all willing residents vaccinated much earlier than June. (There were, of course, residents who refused the vaccine, usually under pressure from their own ill-informed children.). I’d be looking a bit harder at individual nursing homes before thinking the system was to blame. I don’t remember the exact dates but my partner’s workplace seemed pretty quick to me at the time. And the handful of extra doses they had left over from residents who refused to be vaccinated were immediately offered to staff I believe.

Regarding the 12 year olds... I don’t have enough information to comment except to note that, again, if the doses are going to expire then they should be used on someone and given the variation between state rollouts I would not be surprised to hear this could happen. Also, that younger age group cannot even book for a vaccine until the 13th of September (unless they are identified as at risk) so I cannot see that they’d be directly impacting the 50 yo group yet.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by GILow

Well yes, the quarantine guys were the first, and that made sense at the time. They were hoping to keep the virus out as a first priority. As it turns out, the vaccines haven’t worked in that way, but hindsight is always so clear.

As for the nursing homes... my partner is an aged care nurse and her workplace had all willing residents vaccinated much earlier than June. (There were, of course, residents who refused the vaccine, usually under pressure from their own ill-informed children.). I’d be looking a bit harder at individual nursing homes before thinking the system was to blame. I don’t remember the exact dates but my partner’s workplace seemed pretty quick to me at the time. And the handful of extra doses they had left over from residents who refused to be vaccinated were immediately offered to staff I believe.

Australia has been lucky to have plenty of hindsight by observing what has occurred in other countries over the past 18 months. They seem to have ignored this.

In my relative’s case, permission to vaccinate was given to the nursing home (in a major capital city) in February. NONE of the residents in the home were vaccinated prior to May. Nor was any of the staff until much later and they had to front up for this personally on their own time rather than it being offered when the rest of the residents were vaccinated. So much for protecting those at extreme risk of dying.

In my opinion, that sucks, to put it politely.

Originally Posted by GILow

Regarding the 12 year olds... I don’t have enough information to comment except to note that, again, if the doses are going to expire then they should be used on someone and given the variation between state rollouts I would not be surprised to hear this could happen. Also, that younger age group cannot even book for a vaccine until the 13th of September (unless they are identified as at risk) so I cannot see that they’d be directly impacting the 50 yo group yet.

OK, not the 12 year olds quite yet. But certainly the 16 year olds are being prioritised over the oldies.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

.

There is, however, not enough doses available in Australia to vaccinate all the people they are currently available to. Why offer them to 12 year olds when 50+ year olds currently have difficulties booking appointments in some states? I am speaking from the experience of hearing what is actually occurring for friends and relatives, not off the top of my head.

SWL

It's odd hearing how some are having difficulty

We walked into the chemist to make a booking thinking there'd be a waiting list.
No wait, got done then and there.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

It's odd hearing how some are having difficulty

We walked into the chemist to make a booking thinking there'd be a waiting list.
No wait, got done then and there.

It may be that difficulties are occurring in Sydney and Melbourne given the recent outbreaks there. Also AZ seems to be readily available everywhere. Pfizer less so.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... What is happening in the developing world will have far reaching consequences for all of us, and none of them good...

Indeed.
None of us is [relatively] safe, until all of us are.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

It may be that difficulties are occurring in Sydney and Melbourne given the recent outbreaks there. Also AZ seems to be readily available everywhere. Pfizer less so.

And people should get over their petty phobias and step up and get it

[pdjb]

What about natural immunization, no one talks about that?