The Reality of Living in Australia and Covid

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by tanngrisnir

You have fallen foul of looking for what you want on the internet.

I don’t consider presenting opinions from a government document that concur with mine as falling foul.

Originally Posted by tanngrisnir

The FWC Decision you are quoting paragraphs from is All about unfair dismissal. Kimber was dismissed and sought to appeal. The appeal was denied by the majority and it's all done and dusted by para 61 , the appeal was refused.

Yes, I specifically stated “Most of it discusses a specific case related to flu vaccination”.
Regarding the denial, Kimber was the only witness in her own case. It seems the evidence she presented could have been collated better. The decision could well have been different had she presented her case more strongly.

Originally Posted by tanngrisnir

What you are quoting is part of the reasoning of the minority for not supporting the decision.

Correct.
I do not have a legal background so I cannot comment on whether the decision was legally correct regarding the flu vaccine case or what mistakes were made, but there was clearly strong opposition to the decision within the panel.

I presented the document as something interesting released by the Fair Work Commission on an Australian government website that discussed mandatory COVID-19 vaccination. There were lots of issues raised that I think need to be considered.

Currently there are no rulings regarding some Australian states mandating vaccination for numerous professions including construction workers and truck drivers (not just those related to the healthcare industry). Education is also being restricted to the vaccinated, both at primary/secondary and tertiary levels. I think this is very wrong.

I do need to stress again my opinions are merely personal, not professional, but isn’t that what chat forums are all about?

SWL

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The thing about Growth is its not infinite.. sooner or later it collapses under its own weight. [emoji3]

Interesting view. We live in an expanding universe after the Big Bang as Steven Hawkins has tought us, so it seems to be intrinsic infinite in our universe.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by tanngrisnir

So, this is why I keep reading this thread. There has been some really interesting and challenging discussion. I acknowledge I have the same pro-vaccination bias, but I acknowledge other people have different biases and concerns. I thank you all for your contributions, even the occasional wack job popping in just to show there is a lot of diversity of opinion out there.

And I also extend my thanks for all the responses that have been cordial.

I strongly believe it is wrong to suppress even the wackiest thoughts. People need to be free to air their opinions. People don’t need to be “protected” from diverse opinions, particularly scientific or medical ones.

Medically, the development on how best to treat stomach ulcers is a good lesson in keeping an open mind. Two Australian doctors, Marshall and Barry fought long and hard to convince the medical profession that stomach ulcers were caused by a bacterial infection, not simply excess stomach acid. They were ridiculed, and not in a minor way. Eventually Marshall infected himself to help support his convictions. To cut a long story short, subsequently antibiotic treatment was adopted as the worldwide standard. In 2005 Marshall and Barry were awarded a Nobel prize for their work.

Even “wacky” opinions need to be considered.

SWL

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Isn't misrepresenting the facts anti-science, and anti-ethical?


“Ethical Considerations for Unblinding and Vaccinating COVID-19 Vaccine Trial Placebo Group Participants” ~ Jenna Rose Stoehr et al

“... Once proven efficacious, vaccine makers and researchers have an ethical obligation to unblind the placebo groups of COVID-19 vaccine trials, and offer them vaccine, based on the four principles of medical ethics ...
... As COVID-19 vaccine trials continue and efficacy results are published, it will become increasingly more difficult and ethically fraught to maintain a valid placebo group, especially in high-income countries. By unblinding and vaccinating placebo participants regardless of distribution tier, researchers have the opportunity to address all four of the primary bioethical principles: beneficence, non-maleficence, autonomy, and justice. Consequently, the need for placebo groups may be satisfied in future trials in LMICs, which will allow for additional gains in the pursuit of beneficence, justice, and health for all.”

➥ https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...21.702960/full

This actually is trying to say that is more ethical to have placebo groups in lower income countries.
Nonsense.
This paper doesn't represent good science. It's purpose is to provide cover for big pharma.

Here is another paper that came to the opposite conclusions:

Data about the long-term safety and efficacy of vaccines are essential to support their full licensure and their intended widespread, government-financed use. For example, important uncertainties remain about the duration of the high protective efficacy of the vaccines; whether measures of immune function, such as neutralizing antibody titers, predict any waning of immunity; whether enhanced disease occurs following vaccine waning; and the safety and effectiveness of vaccines in different demographic groups as well as long-term safety. The best way to resolve these uncertainties is to continue placebo-controlled trials, given the substantial risks of bias in observational studies of vaccine effectiveness,5 especially under rapidly changing circumstances.https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2774382

These trials are supposed to establish the facts about a particular potential therapeutic. Facts about long term efficacy and side effects.
Obviously they do not want some of these facts to come to light.
How is that not anti-science?

Furthermore, we are talking about Pfizer here. Habitual health care fraud felons. We are trusting their research without even requiring independent studies to back it up.

Pfizer has been a “habitual offender,” persistently engaging in illegal and corrupt marketing practices, bribing physicians and suppressing adverse trial results. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/

The above article is from 2010. Do you want me to dig up and post their entire rap sheet?

How many here are financially invested in these unethical big pharma companies? (check your portfolios). I think the answer would be telling related to who posts what here. With Science (the faith based religion that you seem to adhere to, not the concept), conflicts of interests run rampant.

Do you care, Gord, to point out then, just how I distorted the facts as you claim, and how this paper that you posted (which advocates that real trials should only be held in poor countries) in any way refutes what I have said?

Sorry Australians for barging in on your thread. I don't think that the O.P. (UFO) minds if I drop a truth bomb now and then. Unlike some here, I don't troll every single covid thread. Someone has to refute the thought police now and then.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Interesting view. We live in an expanding universe after the Big Bang as Steven Hawkins has tought us, so it seems to be intrinsic infinite in our universe.

Our lifetimes are not long enough to guesstimate the possible infinity of the universe..
Kinda like a mite trying to forecast its hosts lifespan.. assuming it even knows what it's host is.
However history has numerous examples of human growth becoming top heavy and collapsing in on its self.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Our lifetimes are not long enough to guesstimate the possible infinity of the universe.. [emoji3]

Kinda like a mite trying to forecast its hosts lifespan.. assuming it even knows what it's host is.

However history has numerous examples of human growth becoming top heavy and collapsing in on its self.

Why would growth be limited to the planet?
We have not even started to use the resources of the solar system beside of some fractions of the natural radiation from our central star.

We are afraid from some 1 degree warming of the planet, (what means an increase of energy stored in our system for free).

[El Pinguino]

Has anybody seen or head of Morrison since he left Washington? Seems to be taking a long time getting home.
Meanwhile this is pretty weird -LNP figures setting up 'fake' unions.

'A set of “fake unions” with links to current and former Liberal and National party figures are capitalising on anti-vaccination fears to recruit doctors, teachers and nurses and exploit dissent within the labour movement about mandatory vaccinations.'

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...29-p58vri.html

Meanwhile Hunt has announced 'Phizer for all' but good luck in Victoria as it is only will only be available from pharmacies not state hubs so expect to be in a long queue.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Have we, I wasn't aware.

I have heard a lot gum flapping by various politicians but nothing has morphed into concrete AFAIK. If it like most of the pollie talk, there is a large chasm between what they spout and what eventuates.

BTW, I do agree in principle with the Fair Work Commission comments you posted.

Hi Wottie
Regarding mandatory vaccination, this is from the Vic government website:

“Workers required to be vaccinated
The following workers will be required to show evidence of their vaccination to their employer by a certain date in order to continue working.
* Workers in residential aged care facilities
* Workers at construction sites
* Workers in healthcare settings
* Workers at school, childcare and early education services (plus outside school hours care services)”
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/i...-be-vaccinated

At the stage when 80% of adults have been fully vaccinated in Victoria (indicative date 5th November 2021) only fully vaccinted workers can go to work. This makes it at least mandatory in the short term, particularly for anyone in the hospitality industry and other jobs where working from home is not possible:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap

Regarding education next year it may be that vaccination is being required for students is only being discussed. I can’t find a government link to attach, however, The University of Melbourne has already issued this:
“the University is making COVID-19 vaccinations a requirement for attending our campuses to minimise the risk of COVID-19 to our community. This decision is based on public health advice and is aligned to the Victorian Government’s roadmap, which currently states that onsite learning and work can re-commence for people who are fully vaccinated from 5 November. From this date, all students, staff, contractors and visitors attending our campuses will be required to be fully vaccinated. ”.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroo...n-requirements

SWL

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Why would growth be limited to the planet?
We have not even started to use the resources of the solar system beside of some fractions of the natural radiation from our central star.

We are afraid from some 1 degree warming of the planet, (what means an increase of energy stored in our system for free).

Wrong thread... we should now move to "Ever seen a UFO"..

[Van Der Beek]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Wottie
Regarding mandatory vaccination, this is from the Vic government website:

“Workers required to be vaccinated
The following workers will be required to show evidence of their vaccination to their employer by a certain date in order to continue working.
* Workers in residential aged care facilities
* Workers at construction sites
* Workers in healthcare settings
* Workers at school, childcare and early education services (plus outside school hours care services)”
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/i...-be-vaccinated

At the stage when 80% of adults have been fully vaccinated in Victoria (indicative date 5th November 2021) only fully vaccinted workers can go to work. This makes it at least mandatory in the short term, particularly for anyone in the hospitality industry and other jobs where working from home is not possible:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap

Regarding education next year it may be that vaccination is being required for students is only being discussed. I can’t find a government link to attach, however, The University of Melbourne has already issued this:
“the University is making COVID-19 vaccinations a requirement for attending our campuses to minimise the risk of COVID-19 to our community. This decision is based on public health advice and is aligned to the Victorian Government’s roadmap, which currently states that onsite learning and work can re-commence for people who are fully vaccinated from 5 November. From this date, all students, staff, contractors and visitors attending our campuses will be required to be fully vaccinated. ”.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroo...n-requirements

SWL

Government will do what it can get away with.

If there is compliance and support with no to little push back they simply keep moving the goal post and agenda forward.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Wottie
Regarding mandatory vaccination, this is from the Vic government website:

“Workers required to be vaccinated
The following workers will be required to show evidence of their vaccination to their employer by a certain date in order to continue working.
* Workers in residential aged care facilities
* Workers at construction sites
* Workers in healthcare settings
* Workers at school, childcare and early education services (plus outside school hours care services)”
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/i...-be-vaccinated

At the stage when 80% of adults have been fully vaccinated in Victoria (indicative date 5th November 2021) only fully vaccinated workers can go to work. This makes it at least mandatory in the short term, particularly for anyone in the hospitality industry and other jobs where working from home is not possible:
https://www.coronavirus.vic.gov.au/victorias-roadmap

Regarding education next year it may be that vaccination is being required for students is only being discussed. I can’t find a government link to attach, however, The University of Melbourne has already issued this:
“the University is making COVID-19 vaccinations a requirement for attending our campuses to minimise the risk of COVID-19 to our community. This decision is based on public health advice and is aligned to the Victorian Government’s roadmap, which currently states that onsite learning and work can re-commence for people who are fully vaccinated from 5 November. From this date, all students, staff, contractors and visitors attending our campuses will be required to be fully vaccinated. ”.
https://about.unimelb.edu.au/newsroo...n-requirements

SWL

I don't I am reading it that way but rather 'only fully vaccinated workers can go to work in the above industries"

Individual companies are bring in their own requirements at their own pace eg SPC, Telstra and Qantas
More on the current state of play in that arena here
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/f...30-p58w9u.html

Can anyone oblige you to be vaccinated before they employ you?
Pretty much yes or so it would seem
https://www.humanrights.vic.gov.au/r...d-your-rights/

Does anyone have any idea what is going on in NSW just now? I asked Gladys and she doesn't know.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The situation in Oz by the numbers actually looks pretty good:


Daily case rate is basically stable for last two weeks, at under 100 per million, which is low.


Vaccination program continues to work at warp speed:


....

Death rate has increased and is now higher than in most Nordic countries, but it's still only 0.53, which is basically statistical noise --- compare say UK at the peak with over 16.


I didn't expect after such a fumbling start that the vax campaign could be pulled together like this. Good news for you guys.


You're only a couple months maybe behind Norway, which has now declared the pandemic over. So maybe won't be long now.

I don't think you can look at Australia as a country, not even as seven conjoined countries, these days.
Four of the seven states and Territories - NT,WA,SA,Tas - are essentially islands and are covid free. Only one of them SA really has a land border of any consequence with the east coast.
Queensland is hanging onto its island status by a thread.

Covid is essentially a Vic/NSW problem - nothing more ( at the present time). It was a Melbourne/Sydney problem but that horse has bolted. Best to look at infections and deaths against the population of those two states - about 14.8 million .

[Van Der Beek]

Big Pharma was mentioned earlier.

Big pharma's business model is to profit off of sick and ill people, the profits are not in the cure(s) but in the treatment(s) That's how they make their money, if they can turn healthy people into their consumer base even better still, say a yearly shot of their vaccine (pick one), it means they now have a yearly revenue stream.

As for these vaccines I'm sure there's nothing wrong with the product, in fact, big pharma has such confidence in their own product that they have made it so they cannot be held liable in case of personal injury and or death as a result of a "patient" having had it injected.

It must be great to be able to go to work and sell people something and have zero liability. Not just that, also have government(s) push your product onto people and now borderline forcing it onto the population.

As we all know, government has our best interest, especially when it comes to our health. I believe they call it 'public health', of course, there is no such thing as 'public health' there is only health of individuals, but IF they actually focused on the health of individuals they would not be able to do what they are currently doing, since all of what is done is done under the guise of 'public health'

Isn't that interesting.


Addendum
Am I saying people should abstain from taking the vaccine? Nope, what I am saying however is that it is your body, your health, government doesn't own your body and I am pretty sure none of you signed a contract that gave government ownership of it and if government claims ownership of it they better show proof of claim! Don't just hand it over.

In other words, you have to make up your own mind, make your own decision, based on your age, your sex, and your health, and then, if you do take the vaccine, hope that the trust you give them is not being abused.

It's all based on trust, trust as far as I'm concerned is earned, it's something that is built over time, and I don't see either big pharma or government having earned my trust. But hey, others may be of a different opinion and that's cool. Just don't try force it onto people that's all.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

I don't I am reading it that way but rather 'only fully vaccinated workers can go to work in the above industries"….

Hi Ping
I don’t think your interpretation is correct.
The two Vic government web pages were seperate.

The first listed where vaccination was mandatory, full stop.

The second was the roadmap to opening where the restrictions at each stage may be only temporary. At the 80% double vaccinated stage estimated to occur on the 5th November nobody can work away from home unless double vaccinated. The website does not even exclude ”essential” workers. If you have a job where working from home is not an option (eg hospitality industry, retail, entertainment etc) does this not make vaccination essentially mandatory if you wish to work? Employers are unlikely to leave your job open if they need to replace you in the interim.

SWL

[Simi 60]

Medical from what I understand has always required its workers to have had certain vaccinations as a condition of employment.

Travelling to other countries has also had vaccine requirements as condition of entry.

What logical reason is there for some of you losing your **** now?