U.S. to close..

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What other vaccine has been developed in 10 months with 20 million doses delivered by the end of the same year? This is just an attempt to undermine a incredible accomplishment ...
... If you want to claim OWS wasn't one of Trump's accomplishments, then no president should be given credit for any program ...

Indeed.

Originally Posted by GordMay

Launched in May, Operation Warp Speed (OWS), a Trump administration initiative to manufacture COVID-19 vaccines as fast as possible,should be lauded as a successful endeavour ...

I thought I gave due credit.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What other vaccine has been developed in 10 months with 20 million doses delivered by the end of the same year? This is just an attempt to undermine a incredible accomplishment.

If you want to claim OWS wasn't one of Trump's accomplishments, then no president should be given credit for any program that was largely run by the agencies under that president...realistically, it's rare for a president to have any hands on work particularly in technical programs. Do you think when the TVA was building dams back during the depression, the president did the geotechnical engineering on the dam foundations? Of course not.

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump was somehow hands-on and doing the day-to-day management of OWS? OWS was basically firing a sh1tload of money at vaccine development, and there were people in place to run it.

We've acknowledged OWS as a great achievement. Don't overplay your hand.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So how exactly does having a registry speed up the distribution? Until we get to the last 5-10%, it's really not an issue figuring out who has had it (hence the comment about people scamming to get it 10 times).

Any vaccination system currently in place isn't designed to do the entire population at once, so yes trying to do the entire population at once is new territory. It's usually young children or targeted groups (like elderly for flu shots)...so having that normal system doesn't really offer much advantage that I can see.

As far as will I get it...I'll be watching the early roll out but assuming no major issues show up, by the time it gets around to me, I probably will get it but by then there will likely be 100-150million doses distributed worldwide and we will have results that are orders of magnitude larger to assess with.

You honestly can't see how a centralized health care system with a national registry, database, inter hospital/clinic system and national coordination will facilitate the logistics of the operation?

No, you are wrong about the scope of national vaccination programs. It's not just select groups that get vaccinated. Recently, there was a yellow fever outbreak in Brazil and the national health care system vaccinated most of the population over a few months. It's easier to ramp up an existing system than create a new one or piece together a hodgepodge of state and municipal systems. I'm not saying the US will not rise to the challenge, but it will be a challenge. The fact that they will involve the military suggests the lack of preparedness of the US health care system.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . Societies where people trust each other to do the right thing are not trapped in a prisoner's dilemma of bad choices. But you can't create this kind of society overnight. And when you can't operate on trust, what is left? I fear force is all that remains. It's the best, worst option at that point.

Ineed. I think the key is to remember that freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. When people have a high degree of responsibility and a high degree of social consciousness, they can be given a high degree of autonomy and individual freedom. It's a virtuous cycle.

Whereas in our society a significant faction believes that "freedom" -- is just the freedom to say "f you" to anyone, and do what you want, no matter how harmful it is to others. I think we've had people on here even saying so much.

So, yes. I'm afraid you are right. I've said all along that the same combination of measures is not going to be right for all countries.

Still, look at the measures used in Minnesota -- a place ethnically more or less identical to the Nordic countries, and culturally similar. See: https://mn.gov/covid19/for-minnesota...-safe-plan.jsp

Is this all that stupid? The "Dial Back Minnesota" program is a set of pretty strict measures, but short of full lockdown. Mandatory masking and work from home if you can. Seems pretty good to me. I'm not sure what they were doing in the interval between the first lockdown and now. They seem to have, at least now, most of the measures we have here, plus some rather stricter ones.

But the death rate in Minnesota today is 10x higher than the peak death rate in Sweden during the second wave, and 50x higher than Finland. Why? I really don't know.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Ineed. I think the key is to remember that freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. When people have a high degree of responsibility and a high degree of social consciousness, they can be given a high degree of autonomy and individual freedom. It's a virtuous cycle.

Yup. I may have said this before , but rights (freedoms) come with responsibilities. Sadly this is something a growing number of people seem to have forgotten. The idea of societal maturity has been mentioned. It's analogous to dealing with adults vs children. Adults have more autonomy because most have matured beyond the stage of only caring about themselves. Children must be given more authoritarian limits because they can not cognitively appreciate that their actions affect others.

Or as you more eloquently put it:

Whereas in our society a significant faction believes that "freedom" -- is just the freedom to say "f you" to anyone, and do what you want, no matter how harmful it is to others. I think we've had people on here even saying so much.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump was somehow hands-on and doing the day-to-day management of OWS? OWS was basically firing a sh1tload of money at vaccine development, and there were people in place to run it.

And what do you think FDR's role in the TVA was (or a host of other depression era programs)? Yet, FDR commonly is given credit for it, as if he was out there with a shovel, digging the foundations...no, as you say he was "firings a sh1tload of money" at everything and hoping something would stick and he is frequently hailed as a hero for it.

It's the inconsistency that is annoying and in many ways undermines the lefts attempts to create a narrative among those who haven't drank the coolaid. If Trump cured cancer, there would be complaints that he's contributing to overpopulation...eventually, people assume the media is being dishonest. Of course Trump feeds that but the media helps out as much as they can by actually being dishonest about it.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed.

I thought I gave due credit.

Your quote that followed: I wouldn't say that the president "oversaw" nor "concieved" of the OWS program, but he certainly didn't seem to hinder it.

That comes across as we shouldn't give him any credit.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

You honestly can't see how a centralized health care system with a national registry, database, inter hospital/clinic system and national coordination will facilitate the logistics of the operation?

No, you are wrong about the scope of national vaccination programs. It's not just select groups that get vaccinated. Recently, there was a yellow fever outbreak in Brazil and the national health care system vaccinated most of the population over a few months. It's easier to ramp up an existing system than create a new one or piece together a hodgepodge of state and municipal systems. I'm not saying the US will not rise to the challenge, but it will be a challenge. The fact that they will involve the military suggests the lack of preparedness of the US health care system.

OK, I didn't know about the recent Brazilian distribution but that's an existing vaccine where they just ramped up production and that doesn't really change much in terms of the current Covid 19 situation.

There are systems in place in the USA, it's not the wasteland that you make it out to be where medical staff randomly wander the countryside distributing vaccines haphazardly. Yes, it's a distributed system rather than central system. There are pros & cons to each approach (example: if the central system has a fatal flaw, the entire country has a problem...with a distributed system, a small area may have issues but most will proceed just fine)

And as I've said, as long as demand outstrips supply, it really won't matter. People will be vaccinated as fast as it can be produced and by the time supply catches up with demand, we will have herd immunity and it won't matter much if the last few percent are not vaccinated with peak efficiency.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Are you seriously suggesting that Trump was somehow hands-on and doing the day-to-day management of OWS? OWS was basically firing a sh1tload of money at vaccine development, and there were people in place to run it.

We've acknowledged OWS as a great achievement. Don't overplay your hand.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Your quote that followed: I wouldn't say that the president "oversaw" nor "concieved" of the OWS program, but he certainly didn't seem to hinder it.

That comes across as we shouldn't give him any credit.

Why do we have to politicize all this?

OWS worked, and that is bloody good news. Sometimes "not hindering", and then "firing a sh1tload of money" at the right thing, is exactly the task for the politician. Good for him. But good for EVERYONE. The whole system worked -- especially the pharmaceutical industry. And remember no one company or even any one country did it alone -- there was a huge amount of cooperation across the world; China also played a role. It's really a fantastic achievement -- of mankind, of science, of industry, of our civilization, of global cooperation, of a couple of Turkish immigrants to Germany, even of a certain much hated presidential administration. Good on everyone.

[Capn Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But the death rate in Minnesota today is 10x higher than the peak death rate in Sweden during the second wave... Why? I really don't know.

Attachment 228236

Attachment 228237

Hi Dockhead, sorry but I'm not following. Your graphs are showing gross numbers, not a rate. Here's today's deaths/100k, a fair comparison.

First, Sweden...



And then Minnesota...






Both Sweden and Minnesota deaths per 100K are really not all that different. The recent blip in Minnesota is undoubtedly related to our disastrous Thanksgiving travel and celebrations.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

And what do you think FDR's role in the TVA was (or a host of other depression era programs)? Yet, FDR commonly is given credit for it, as if he was out there with a shovel, digging the foundations...no, as you say he was "firings a sh1tload of money" at everything and hoping something would stick and he is frequently hailed as a hero for it.

FDR was a hero for the New Deal, of which TVA was a part. Oh, and he was also a hero for being a sympathetic, intelligent, confident, and inspiring leader. Someone people could look up to.

It's the inconsistency that is annoying and in many ways undermines the lefts attempts to create a narrative among those who haven't drank the coolaid. If Trump cured cancer, there would be complaints that he's contributing to overpopulation...eventually, people assume the media is being dishonest. Of course Trump feeds that but the media helps out as much as they can by actually being dishonest about it.

Your MAGA hat's just on a bit too tight, that's all.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Capn Jimbo

Hi Dockhead, sorry but I'm not following. Your graphs are showing gross numbers, not a rate. Here's today's deaths/100k, a fair comparison.

First, Sweden...



And then Minnesota...






Both Sweden and Minnesota deaths per 100K are really not all that different. The recent blip in Minnesota is undoubtedly related to our disastrous Thanksgiving travel and celebrations.

I'm not sure what the source of your data is. My graphs are from Worldometer. They show a seven day rolling average of daily deaths in Minnesota of 58. Minnesota has a population of 5.3 million, so that is 10.9 per million.
Sweden today has a seven day rolling average of daily deaths of 10. Sweden has a population of 10.3 million. So that is 0.97 per million. The difference to Minnesota is 11.3x.


Now Sweden's daily death rate did briefly hit 49, a couple of weeks ago. That's 4.76 per million, still less than half of Minnesota TODAY.


You can see for yourself here: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries


So why the difference? I am genuinely curious. What is your opinion? I have relatives in Minneapolis and I know that Minnesota is one of the best run U.S. states, with particularly good public health (at least by U.S. standards). The anti-pandemic measures published on the state government site seem pretty well thought out. So is it just random factors?

[dwedeking2]

Ineed. I think the key is to remember that freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin. When people have a high degree of responsibility and a high degree of social consciousness, they can be given a high degree of autonomy and individual freedom. It's a virtuous cycle.

Whereas in our society a significant faction believes that "freedom" -- is just the freedom to say "f you" to anyone, and do what you want, no matter how harmful it is to others. I think we've had people on here even saying so much.

I agree with you and Mike in regards to responsibilities and freedoms. Unfortunately our society (US) markets the ideals of freedom but fails to teach the responsibilities. To learn responsibilities there must be the option to fail and to feel the pain of that failure. Our society has soooo many rules to protect us from ourselves, and a huge safety to net to minimize the pain of poor choices. Everyone gets a participation trophy and we try to equalize results (vs equalizing opportunities).



So, now you have citizens with limited freedoms and lack the experience to deal with those freedoms (and the downside to being allowed to make bad choices). This is going to increase the pain if things fall apart.

[GordMay]

As daily case average nears 200,000, experts say 'behavior and cold weather' are behind Covid-19 surge
➥ https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/us/us...bRS?li=AAggFp5

“How ‘Superspreading’ Events Drive Most COVID-19 Spread”
As few as 10 percent of infected people may drive a whopping 80 percent of cases in specific types of situations
➥ https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...id-19-spread1/

More about Dispersion Value - 'K' ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3290872

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

What other vaccine has been developed in 10 months with 20 million doses delivered by the end of the same year? This is just an attempt to undermine a incredible accomplishment.

You mean like the annual flu shot?

So how much molecular biology have you studied? Or are you just winging it? Can you imagine how people speaking nonsense about "it oughta take 10 years or it's suspect" is tantamount to disinformation? Undermining the efforts of people who've studied molecular biology to help people?

Or do we react to them like they are witches...not to be trusted? Because you have some notion that came from somewhere?