U.S. to close..

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Yihang

So the other 290k excess death which seems to be chasing the covid outbreak is just coincidence?

I think a separate conversation can be had about whether 290k is acceptable but I don't see how you can just ignore the excess death numbers.

No, those 290 mostly all had the 2.5 co morbidities which are the real cause of death.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Links? Cites? What illnesses?


Links? Cites? How do you know it hasn't been studied?


Vaccine hesitancy is being broadcast by fact-free repetition of dubious information.


Ah. "You're right but we have to prove this". Riiight.


... and let me be the first to welcome you to capitalism. The expectation is that they can do both: improve our health AND make a profit.

I researched this years ago, so links are not so readily available but here's a couple, but I can no longer find the up to 18 stats only 2 to 8 year olds.


https://www.cdc.gov/healthyschools/c...conditions.htm


https://www.cdc.gov/chronicdisease/r...c-diseases.htm




Asking me to prove that something doesn't exist is a humorous thing to do, so I will flip it back at you, if you are really interested prove to me that it has been studied by the CDC etc.



But to give you a helping hand:


Taken from a Government white paper of the immunization schedule:

"Recommendation 6-2: The Department of Health and Human Services should refrain from initiating randomized controlled trials of the childhood immunization schedule that compare safety outcomes in fully vaccinated children with those in unvaccinated children or those vaccinated by use of an alternative schedule."


Dubious information there is a lot of that for sure, but it comes from both sides. There is a skeleton in the closet for everyone


https://time.com/5211143/robert-redfield-cdc-director/


That's a pretty big expectation when they have a history of putting profits before people - Why do you think that is going to change?


Here is some light reading for you


Conclusions from the white paper mentioned above:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK206956/


Couple of studies:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268563/


https://electromedicine.org.au/wp-co.../JTS-3-186.pdf


You'll like this one:


https://sharylattkisson.com/2019/01/...vt-covered-up/


Take this seriously or with a pinch of salt


https://medium.com/@kimberlydrake21/...m-25fb3faa6b69

[UFO]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

No, those 290 mostly all had the 2.5 co morbidities which are the real cause of death.

Reading between the lines it is obvious that some people have a massive distrust of Governments, Organisations and Corporations, whilst others fully believe that what they say is gospel and could never truly believe that they could be so corrupt.


As you are aware it is very easy to tell lies and mislead with statistics and they do not have the greatest track record of telling the truth, hence a lot of people not truly believing the official narrative - It does not mean that there is no truth there, but how many shades of gray may there be? Could be lots or very little.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

It’s obviously not the common flu, it’s a virus that came out of china, t.

The data disagrees with your delusion and made up story

Swab from Milan boy, 4, tests positive to coronavirus weeks before Wuhan outbreak
Researchers say a swab from a four-year-old boy taken months before Italy’s first confirmed COVID-19 cases tested positive for the coronavirus.

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...fbae233ad7712e

[UFO]

Just to lighten things up

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

No, those 290 mostly all had the 2.5 co morbidities which are the real cause of death.

Yes, Vast majority of comorbidities were respiratory related, which is directly related to covid. Like saying a gunshot victim died from hemorrhagic shock and liver laceration instead of the gunshot.

I think it's disingenuous to say 200k or so respiratory death that happen to coincide with covid 19 are not related. You would think one doesn't need to explain dying from respiratory complication while infected with covid still means you died from covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...#Comorbidities


A few articles explaining why the 6% claim is plain wrong. But whatever.........Chyna

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-idUSKBN25U2IO

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-comorbidities.html


Like I said whether you think all these people with existing condition were worth all the shutdown is another topic. But saying only 10k people died from covid is really just making yourself look silly.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Yes, Vast majority of comorbidities were respiratory related, which is directly related to covid. Like saying a gunshot victim died from hemorrhagic shock and liver laceration instead of the gunshot.

I think it's disingenuous to say 200k or so respiratory death that happen to coincide with covid 19 are not related. You would think one doesn't need to explain dying from respiratory complication while infected with covid still means you died from covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...#Comorbidities


A few articles explaining why the 6% claim is plain wrong. But whatever.........Chyna

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-idUSKBN25U2IO

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-comorbidities.html


Like I said whether you think all these people with existing condition were worth all the shutdown is another topic. But saying only 10k people died from covid is really just making yourself look silly.

One thing that jumps out is the amount of people with Flu & Pneumonia 110,996 - That is huge and there is no way of knowing if its the Flu that gave them Pneumonia and killed them or Covid - That is a massive grey area.


Same with Heart Failure/Cardiac arrest - Were they going to have a heart attack anyway and die or did Covid cause it - Another big grey area



As for: Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events - Not sure what to say about that but that's another 9343

[dwedeking2]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Yes, Vast majority of comorbidities were respiratory related, which is directly related to covid. Like saying a gunshot victim died from hemorrhagic shock and liver laceration instead of the gunshot.

I think it's disingenuous to say 200k or so respiratory death that happen to coincide with covid 19 are not related. You would think one doesn't need to explain dying from respiratory complication while infected with covid still means you died from covid.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/c...#Comorbidities


A few articles explaining why the 6% claim is plain wrong. But whatever.........Chyna

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-idUSKBN25U2IO

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-comorbidities.html


Like I said whether you think all these people with existing condition were worth all the shutdown is another topic. But saying only 10k people died from covid is really just making yourself look silly.

There is no disputing that there is an uptick in deaths overall for 2020. When you look at deaths overall in the US the consistent increase each month vs the months in 2019 shows that there is an issue.



My theory is though, that we've pulled deaths forward as those with comorbidities would have died in the next 6 - 18 months anyhow. 2021 and 2022, in my opinion, will show a decline in deaths vs 2019.



I'm curious why those who demand society change to fight this disease haven't called for calorie limitations and forced weight reduction. This seems it would solve a large percentage of the covid19 deaths and also other obesity related deaths as well. Once you accept the fact that society owns your body, why limit your control to marginal safety measure like masks and social distancing and do something effect like getting all those fat people under control.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

One thing that jumps out is the amount of people with Flu & Pneumonia 110,996 - That is huge and there is no way of knowing if its the Flu that gave them Pneumonia and killed them or Covid - That is a massive grey area.


Same with Heart Failure/Cardiac arrest - Were they going to have a heart attack anyway and die or did Covid cause it - Another big grey area



As for: Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events - Not sure what to say about that but that's another 9343

Putting Pneumonia and influenza together was a stupid move.

There is 22k seperate flu death recorded. So maybe add another 20k from the covid 19 lot? That seems reasonable.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden...C000%20deaths.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by dwedeking2

There is no disputing that there is an uptick in deaths overall for 2020. When you look at deaths overall in the US the consistent increase each month vs the months in 2019 shows that there is an issue.



My theory is though, that we've pulled deaths forward as those with comorbidities would have died in the next 6 - 18 months anyhow. 2021 and 2022, in my opinion, will show a decline in deaths vs 2019.



I'm curious why those who demand society change to fight this disease haven't called for calorie limitations and forced weight reduction. This seems it would solve a large percentage of the covid19 deaths and also other obesity related deaths as well. Once you accept the fact that society owns your body, why limit your control to marginal safety measure like masks and social distancing and do something effect like getting all those fat people under control.

Well, San Francisco did introduce the Soda tax....

Any self respecting hipster wouldn't be caught dead with a soda though. pamplemoouse Le croix all the way....

[Mike OReilly]

It's always the same pattern with anti-trust people these days. They make an assertion based on anecdotal evidence, and their own "logic". They then ignore all contrary data, or when they can't ignore it, they assert the data is flawed or faked.

How Cause of Death is assigned is a well established practice. The CDC has clear guidelines, and has even published a special Covid-19 specific one to make it clear:

Guidance for Certifying Deaths Due to Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19)

Once again, there is no dispute in the medical community about death numbers due to Covid-19. It's only in the biasphere of conspiracy theorists that doubt percolates.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UFO

One thing that jumps out is the amount of people with Flu & Pneumonia 110,996 - That is huge and there is no way of knowing if its the Flu that gave them Pneumonia and killed them or Covid - That is a massive grey area.. .

Not really, actually. Pneumonia is a COMPLICATION of both flu and COVID. So pneumonia a consequence. So you can be pretty sure that virtually everyone who dies with pneumonia and COVID is a legitimate COVID death.


I have experienced this first hand, as I contracted double pneumonia starting up one week into my own COVID case. Fortunately it was bacterial and responded to antibiotics -- that saved my life, actually. And I am extremely healthy, not overweight, never smoked, no heart problems, nothing you would call a "co-morbidity". This thing can kill you, believe you me.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not really, actually. Pneumonia is a COMPLICATION of both flu and COVID. So pneumonia a consequence. So you can be pretty sure that virtually everyone who dies with pneumonia and COVID is a legitimate COVID death.


I have experienced this first hand, as I contracted double pneumonia starting up one week into my own COVID case. Fortunately it was bacterial and responded to antibiotics -- that saved my life, actually. And I am extremely healthy, not overweight, never smoked, no heart problems, nothing you would call a "co-morbidity". This thing can kill you, believe you me.

To be fair I don't think that's what UFO is saying. He is concerned that some of the pneumonia is caused by the flu, which is fair. Putting flu and pneumonia together in the same comorbidity category was a stupid move by the CDC.

But the CDC also has a separate 20k figure for death caused by flu this year, which is a bit low so lets just move 20k from the covid death and call it a day.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Yihang

To be fair I don't think that's what UFO is saying. He is concerned that some of the pneumonia is caused by the flu, which is fair. Putting flu and pneumonia together in the same comorbidity category was a stupid move by the CDC.

But the CDC also has a separate 20k figure for death caused by flu this year, which is a bit low so lets just move 20k from the covid death and call it a day.

If I misunderstood UFO, them my apologies to him , and thanks to Yihang for pointing it out.

[GordMay]

As I’ve previously posted, there are standard, generally consistent protocols for determining/reporting “Cause of Death”.
➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3287001
➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3287116

“Instructions for Completing the Cause-of-Death Section of the Death Certificate” ~ USCDC
➥ https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/blue_form.pdf
“
“Physicians' Handbook on Medical Certification of Death” ~ CDC
➥ https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/misc/hb_cod.pdf

“Handbook on Medical Certification of Death” ~ Ontario, Canada
➥ https://www.publications.gov.on.ca/s...les/016600.pdf

“INTERNATIONAL GUIDELINES FOR CERTIFICATION AND CLASSIFICATION (CODING) OF COVID-19 AS CAUSE OF DEATH” ~ WHO (Based on International Statistical Classification of Diseases, April 16, 2020)
➥ https://www.who.int/classifications/...h_COVID-19.pdf

“Medical certification of cause of death : instructions for physicians on use of international form of medical certificate of cause of death”
➥ https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/40557