U.S. to close..

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

That’s not so. At this stage of course both sides are mud slinging

The point is uniquely in the western world a president firstly dismissed the whole virus as nonsense , then dismissed the advice of his experts , then sidelined them, and then poured scorn on individual states and so forth.
That’s what’s started the politics processes.

In other countries leaders sought to bring communities together to emphasise collective community action , voluntary rather then mandatory approaches. Their advice was backed up by public health experts and opposition parties largely went along

Yes there is some dissension and contrarians about the place. Here for example, measures have consistently received 70%+ approvals and in fact most criticism of the Gov was that it wasn’t strict enough or acted too slowly , the close the airports opinion being typical of the public’s reaction which the Gov didn’t follow.

Trump wanted to close down travel from China and Nancy Pelosi was having lunch in Chinatown.

[Jason Flare]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CmllqkU6j2k

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Trump wanted to close down travel from China and Nancy Pelosi was having lunch in Chinatown.

At that time, Trump & Co were demonizing the Chinese, not just cutting some flights. In the midst of this attack, Pelosi stops by to show some support to Chinese-Americans.

Win to Pelosi. By far the classier move.

Even Dubya went out of his way to squelch anti-Muslim sentiment after 9/11.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Singularity

You've stated this previously. Billing doesn't work this way.

Here is a link to a factcheck.org piece that speaks more to this issue, but doctors don't do billing. Basically the govt sets rules of what they will/won't pay for. These rules change very frequently. The hospital pays people to run around sniffing charts to:
-see what the hospital can more bill based on what the doc did
-gripe at the doc for doing stuff the govt won't pay for

At most there's a circumstance where the hospital billing case manager says "doc, can you write this in the chart" where the billing person has the criteria for what's what, and the doctor will write enter such diagnosis/detail to the chart. Where this is so, it's because the doc could care less about the detail (for clinical reasons), but, the hospital gets paid more, so stuff gets added (vs "made more complete" from the hospital's standpoint). But this is always the case and payors negotiate group billing (DRGs) such that this slop comes out in the wash.

Importantly, the CARES act out front provides a bonus regardless, while whatever the patient's primary dysfunction is....is what drives the bill. As the linked page states, it's not like a patient will get intubated, or sustained on dialysis merely to sap the bill....in fact such is a money-losing deal.....much of the reason that DRGs came out was to reduce this practice, such that the faster someone is "treated and streeted" the faster you get the next DRG occupying the same bed. In every event, the govt/CMS monitors this like a hawk (their computers do).

If you honestly believe doctors have no understanding of billing and how to record things (without outright lying) to maximize the bill, there's no discussing it with you because you think doctors are complete idiots.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

At that time, Trump & Co were demonizing the Chinese, not just cutting some flights. In the midst of this attack, Pelosi stops by to show some support to Chinese-Americans.

Win to Pelosi. By far the classier move.

Even Dubya went out of his way to squelch anti-Muslim sentiment after 9/11.

LOL.

You’re fun.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you honestly believe doctors have no understanding of billing and how to record things (without outright lying) to maximize the bill, there's no discussing it with you because you think doctors are complete idiots.

If one honestly believes that they can change the subject from the fact that they're wrong about the Covid upcharge concern...
...that one can confound this will alternative (non-Covid) billing issues as an out...
...that one can ignore how I explained how ordinary hospital billing works in a Covid situation...
...then one's nebulous assertion that I'm saying that "doctors are complete idiots" is reasonable. In fact, it makes perfect sense why one would make such a distracting statement under the conditions.

But within the bounds of discussing the subject at hand, Covid upcharge concerns, such concerns are naive and unfounded as described previously.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The empire is undoubtably applicable to either side , that’s the trouble with real life , the good guys arnt all good and the bad ones arnt all bad.

If only more could get that. Currently we need to make China the enemy, if we make them the enemy they'll be the enemy.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by daletournier

If only more could get that. Currently we need to make China the enemy, if we make them the enemy they'll be the enemy.

But if we don't have an enemy, who are we going to blame all of our problems on?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

LOL.

You’re fun.

LOL . You've removed the last shred of doubt.

[Gadagirl]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Going by my memory. Early on the CDC were not recomending masks for the general public for the reason of there being severe shortages of PPE. They were afraid of a run on PPE as there was on toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and clorox wipes. Once people started 3d printing their own N95 masks, sewing masks in there homes, and commercial companies caught up, they started to recommend them.

During this time other counties that were more prepared had the general population wearing masks and finding it effective at slowing the infection rate. And there were various studies and graphics put forward to show us how particulates moved through the air. We could minimize our exposure and exposure to others. Not 100% but better than breathing brown air.

And since the CDC or NHI did an about face on masks. Without explaining explicitly their reasoning, it was politicized. Either they were lying to us before, or they're lying to us now. Without a top down concerted explanation, some people were able to twist it into fake science and overreaching government action. When all it was, was a morph into protecting as need be and as resources could handle.

[OurOasis]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

Correct me if I'm wrong. Going by my memory. Early on the CDC were not recomending masks for the general public for the reason of there being severe shortages of PPE. They were afraid of a run on PPE as there was on toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and clorox wipes. Once people started 3d printing their own N95 masks, sewing masks in there homes, and commercial companies caught up, they started to recommend them.

During this time other counties that were more prepared had the general population wearing masks and finding it effective at slowing the infection rate. And there were various studies and graphics put forward to show us how particulates moved through the air. We could minimize our exposure and exposure to others. Not 100% but better than breathing brown air.

And since the CDC or NHI did an about face on masks. Without explaining explicitly their reasoning, it was politicized. Either they were lying to us before, or they're lying to us now. Without a top down concerted explanation, some people were able to twist it into fake science and overreaching government action. When all it was, was a morph into protecting as need be and as resources could handle.

I think that sum's it up pretty well.

[piloto]

Originally Posted by GordMay

We’ve been given extraordinary latitude (by CF standards) to explore some important, but controversial & contentious, ideas, on several of these Covid-19 threads.
Let’s not screw it up, by getting into overtly partisan squabbles.
We might try to keep the debates focused more on the ideas, and less on the personalities.
In that vein, I ask:
So, should the witness apologize for farting, at Wednesday’s election hearing, in Michigan?

Gord, you've revealed yourself. Any noise to the contrary is self evident (after a few moments).

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Based on all the polling, most Americans have got the message, and are following the public health guidelines. It's just a vocal minority that make it seem otherwise.

This seems consistent with observations in the 3 different states I've spent time in since the pandemic began in earnest. I've also observed quite a bit of compliance with social distancing & mask usage regardless of the political orientation or sensibilities of the locale. But my observations and impressions are merely anecdotal, obviously.

At this point I'm also not sure the oft-cited differences in outcomes btwn Dem and Repub states or regions are supportable, if they ever were. This was politicized too, of course, and so I suspect distorted the truth. Some are all too eager to conflate correlation with causation if it serves their preconceived views. In my mind this adds to the polarization, the result of which exacerbates the tendency of some towards conspiracy theories, anti-govt feelings, willful noncompliance with sensible guidelines and restrictions, etc. Suddenly, anything the "opposing side" proposes or enacts is necessarily dismissed without thoughtful consideration of its objective merit, with people wanting to believe instead that it's the result of incompetence, is purposely misleading, or amounts to something more nefarious. This is the current state of American politics I'm afraid. Fearful, blindly partisan, and terribly dysfunctional, with Trump arguably as much of a symptom as a contributor.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Gadagirl

Correct me if I'm wrong. Going by my memory. Early on the CDC were not recomending masks for the general public for the reason of there being severe shortages of PPE. They were afraid of a run on PPE as there was on toilet paper, hand sanitizer, and clorox wipes. Once people started 3d printing their own N95 masks, sewing masks in there homes, and commercial companies caught up, they started to recommend them.

During this time other counties that were more prepared had the general population wearing masks and finding it effective at slowing the infection rate. And there were various studies and graphics put forward to show us how particulates moved through the air. We could minimize our exposure and exposure to others. Not 100% but better than breathing brown air.

And since the CDC or NHI did an about face on masks. Without explaining explicitly their reasoning, it was politicized. Either they were lying to us before, or they're lying to us now. Without a top down concerted explanation, some people were able to twist it into fake science and overreaching government action. When all it was, was a morph into protecting as need be and as resources could handle.

I agree with most of this, except that I think the authorities made a big mistake not leveling with people about their initial position advising against mask usage. Rather than being truthful about the legitimate need to preserve available supplies for health care workers and first responders, they also quite publicly claimed mask use by the general populace to actually be unhealthy. Whether their motivation was justified or not, the ensuing about face when supplies became more available sowed some doubt and fueled the ensuing fire from those who were perhaps already inclined not to trust the medical experts or the govt they worked for.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I still think that in general the US right (& the alt-right, the monster they created which has escaped from the lab ) have been the most prolific at sowing and exploiting division and spreading "alternate facts", but once the center & left respond with equal vigour, it's hard to make out what's what because of all the yelling.

* * *

A fair synopsis, imho.