U.S. to close..

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Singularity

-So why spend an average of $150,000 on each of the 500,000 heart bypasses done per year? They are all old, sick people with at least 2 chronic health problems.
-Why spend $90,000 per year on a person with kidney failure...>25 billion per year in the US?

The "but let's just focus on healthy people who die to understand the true burden of disease" logic is deceptively simplistic. If you go down that path, you ought to understand that...quite frankly...if you're over the age of 60...then society shouldn't waste healthcare resources on you. So in fact people argue for using that logic as a matter of first thought, but of course, when they/their loved one gets sick........a completely different set of logic kicks in.


Frankly I wonder if it wouldn't be better in the long run for all healthcare workers to just walk off the job tomorrow. Much of modern society are people who have do-nothing jobs paid for with monopoly money that's running out anyway. So perhaps the healthcare workers slaving it out while the Clevons pack pizza joints are just a buffer from the reality that people need to feel...

‘No One Is Listening to Us’

More people than ever are hospitalized with COVID-19. Health-care workers can’t go on like this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...orkers/617091/

I never said anything about money, that’s not relevant to the discussion and certainly heart bypasses etc have nothing to do with this.
But if you want to know why so much money is spent on the elderly, the answer you may not like, but it’s how so many Dr’s get to drive a Porsche, and why there are so many huge mega wealthy corporations based on health care. There is a huge pot of money available for elderly care, and business are going to go for that pot of money, it’s as simple as that.

The discussion was that I don’t believe the number of deaths attributed to Covid.
There are deaths certainly, but the numbers are suspicious.

For example it was reported on the new the other day that Texas has surpassed 1 Million Covid cases.
Texas has a population of 29 Million people, and if you logically assume that there are many unreported cases, well then it would seem that one in twenty of Texans have Covid, plus or minus.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Singularity

-So why spend an average of $150,000 on each of the 500,000 heart bypasses done per year? They are all old, sick people with at least 2 chronic health problems.
-Why spend $90,000 per year on a person with kidney failure...>25 billion per year in the US?

The "but let's just focus on healthy people who die to understand the true burden of disease" logic is deceptively simplistic. If you go down that path, you ought to understand that...quite frankly...if you're over the age of 60...then society shouldn't waste healthcare resources on you. So in fact people argue for using that logic as a matter of first thought, but of course, when they/their loved one gets sick........a completely different set of logic kicks in.


Frankly I wonder if it wouldn't be better in the long run for all healthcare workers to just walk off the job tomorrow. Much of modern society are people who have do-nothing jobs paid for with monopoly money that's running out anyway. So perhaps the healthcare workers slaving it out while the Clevons pack pizza joints are just a buffer from the reality that people need to feel...

‘No One Is Listening to Us’

More people than ever are hospitalized with COVID-19. Health-care workers can’t go on like this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...orkers/617091/

This is the moral hazard with ANY public, or government health plan.

If you are wealthy, old, sick, and in poor health because of neglect any medical cost is on YOU.

If you want to spend a million dollars for a new liver you killed with alcohol addiction, go for it.

Society comes into play when you want somebody ELSE to pay for it.

Society then gas to make a decision, can we afford a new liver for 300 million people? (US) (6.5 Billion world)

When the average lifetime earning is less than the cost of new (liver, heart, kidneys) for every single person, obviously a decision has to be made on who gets it, and who doesn't.

Also the decision has to be made on what percentage of societies output is going to be used on exceptional medical interventions to extend life expectancy just a few more years. As opposed to things like clothes, houses, food.

This leaves "death panels" to decide things like which sick patient on the government health care plan gets the one Heart available, and who dies.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What makes you think herd immunity is the US strategy?

I get that impression because action to date, after the spring lockdowns, has apparently been less than effective. It seems to be a viable strategy too, since very few have hit the streets or otherwise reacted strongly to the mounting death toll.

As I mentioned elsewhere, there are advantages to a country getting through the pandemic as quickly as possible; i doubt that US authorities are unaware of this.

There are two camps here and they are spilt by political lines.

This reinforces my point; if COVID-19 was widely regarded in the US as an existential threat, Americans would work together to confront it.

Or the division is worse there than I've imagined.

But I want you to understand something, you won’t believe it, but the money of the 1% is untouchable, your not getting at it plain and simple. they own too many Lawyers and likely have their money overseas as it is now, Look at the Mega Yachts in Ft. Lauderdale for example, how many are US flagged? Why do you think that is?

Then there is the plain and simple fact that, thank God the President or the Federal Government does not have the power or authority to do the things you guys seem to want them to do, and hopefully that doesn’t change.

I could fill the forum with links to epidemiologists and economists who can demonstrate that sharp action to break the back of the coronavirus spread, coupled with aggressive economic measures to support those most affected by such action, will have the overall LOWEST cost, to both the economy and society. But if a nation is temperamentally against such measures as you state, well then it won't happen. What's left to do, besides simply hoping for an effective vaccine ASAP? Sounds like a herd immunity strategy to me.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

This is the moral hazard with ANY public, or government health plan.
... the decision has to be made on what percentage of societies output is going to be used on exceptional medical interventions to extend life expectancy just a few more years. As opposed to things like clothes, houses, food.

This leaves "death panels" to decide things like which sick patient on the government health care plan gets the one Heart available, and who dies.

Classic misconceptions. A universal single-payer healthcare system puts more premium on maintaining good health than on heroic and expensive late-stage efforts to fix problems caused by health neglect. It eliminates the massive price inflation of a private system. And it COSTS LESS overall, and has better outcomes.

The rest of the world has figured this out. The US will come around eventually.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

... The discussion was that I don’t believe the number of deaths attributed to Covid.
There are deaths certainly, but the numbers are suspicious.

For example it was reported on the new the other day that Texas has surpassed 1 Million Covid cases.
Texas has a population of 29 Million people, and if you logically assume that there are many unreported cases, well then it would seem that one in twenty of Texans have Covid, plus or minus.

Does that mean you do not believe the number of reported cases, either?
This may be a case of you don't want to believe them (the Agencies & their reports).

Texas Department of State Health Services reports over 1 Million CONFIRMED Coronavirus Cases as of 11/14/2020:
Confirmed Cases 1,014,160
Daily New Cases 8,989
Fatalities 19,470
Estimated Recoveries 861,205
Estimated Active Cases 135,912
➥ https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/...01e8b9cafc8b83

[Thumbs Up]

A case is a positive test. The test is admittedly highly inaccurate above ct thresholds of 35. The virus has never been properly isolated (not proven to exist). The vaccine cartel known as Big Pharma is dominated by corporations that are convicted felons which have been repeatedly fined billions of dollars for falsifying research and unethical practices. The WHO and CDC are arms of Big Pharma. We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on medical procedures to prolong the life of well insured people only. Medical error has been implicated as the third leading cause of death in the US and Canada. COVID is a false flag attack, a means to an end. An end being currently defined by agendas set by powerful think tank organizations such as the WEF, CFR, and Rockefellers who control the press, invented PR, and used propaganda to set up a controlled society that keeps wealth in the hands of a few. Why do they want to inject the world's population with an untested DNA altering shot? Trans humanism is also in those agendas. This is not conspiracy. Too enamored by your illusions of mental superiority because of your Rockefeller corporation education to look this stuff up? Can't find any good sources behind the veil of our co-opted media? Look harder. "A vaccine is the only thing that will save us". That's what you guys are parroting. How about a healthy immune system? "Science is going to save the world!" I'm not falling for that line. But go ahead and do as you were taught, OBEY.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

Actually they do.

The CDC has issued Covid death rates, totals, and breakdowns with comorbidities.

For the US deaths without other health complications are about 9,000.

Which puts the Covid about average for a Coronavirus.

Assuming your number is correct, then that’s a slightly different number than Millions that we see on the news.

ANY disease kills the weak way out of proportion to the healthy with rare exception, the Spanish flu is one exception, especially ones on their death beds. I’d bet the immediate cause of death for the majority of people who died of old age is Pneumonia, but we don’t hear of Pneumonia killing millions?


OK Malaria was a bad example, so substitute it for pretty much any disease that runs rampant and is endemic, use Polio instead, we were no where near herd immunity there, Polio was orders of magnitude worse than Covid.

In fact I’d argue that we were exceedingly lucky, Covid is actually a very tame Pandemic, nothing like MERS could have been.

In my opinion Covid could be actually a God send, an actually mild Pandemic that if we are smart that we could learn from and establish measures for containment for when the real deal comes along

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by UFO

Actually we wouldn't because we would all have a natural immunity!


FYI Viruses cause other issues, perhaps you should do some research and see what the Flu, Sore Throat, Measles, German Measles etc can leave you with if you are susceptible - So stop spreading such rubbish in regards to secondary issues - It happens with all viruses, Covid is no different there.

...................
Forcing medical tyranny on people may be acceptable to you, but has yet to break the morals of many.

...........
You people really need to grow up and get a life and try and undo some of the lifetimes worth of anally retentive brainwashing you have undergone.

Choice and freewill is very important in society, but I do understand that some of you that can not think for yourselves find it very comforting to be told what to think and say by the government and corporations - If you don't like the West for the freedoms we have then go and live in China or Iran, which may be more up your alley.

My father got really, really mad at me only once in my life. He was a kind and gentle man.


When I was a kid in the 50s and measles were going around, I said, "Heck, why don't we just let everyone get it!" They'd just come up with the vaccine and I was scared of needles and didn't want to get jabbed. He was a doctor - podiatrist.


He rounded on me and pointed to one of his eyes. "I lost a lot of the sight in this eye because of measles. I only wish they'd had a vaccine for it when I was your age. You WILL get the shot."


My aunt lost most of her left shoulder due to polio. I got that shot, too.


I find it irresponsible of people to be anti-vax, pro-herd immunity, and selfish. It isn't about freedom, it's about community.


I wonder if these same people haven't gotten their polio and other shots.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...The discussion was that I don’t believe the number of deaths attributed to Covid.
There are deaths certainly, but the numbers are suspicious.

The term "suspicious" implies dishonesty or deceit. Citing something as deceitful is particularly problematic under the circumstances. The numbers are not suspicious if you understand how they are tabulated. If you don't know how they are tabulated, please figure it out quietly being calling shenanigans. There's simply no logical difference between calling the numbers deceitful and citing demonic influence (or whatever superstitious/paranoid/conspiracy bad entity is supposedly responsible for creating the deceit).

ANY disease kills the weak way out of proportion to the healthy with rare exception, the Spanish flu is one exception, especially ones on their death beds. I’d bet the immediate cause of death for the majority of people who died of old age is Pneumonia, but we don’t hear of Pneumonia killing millions?

First, it's completely illogical to say that ANY disease kills the weak out of proportion to the healthy.....you have to be unhealthy to be weak. Otherwise lots of very healthy (almost a risk factor) people get motor neuron disease, cancer is indiscriminate, etc, etc, etc. This is where costs come in...you're referring to them but don't realize it.

So I know lots of people with many diseases, and I know my brother has MS. I'm pretty certain that my brother (an EE with a handful of patents) has contributed more to society than people like you. So is it fair to assume that if people like you start keeling over, we shouldn't be as concerned? It's harder to replace someone who continues to contribute as he does than someone like you. See how this works when we go there?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Does that mean you do not believe the number of reported cases, either?
This may be a case of you don't want to believe them (the Agencies & their reports).

Texas Department of State Health Services reports over 1 Million CONFIRMED Coronavirus Cases as of 11/14/2020:
Confirmed Cases 1,014,160
Daily New Cases 8,989
Fatalities 19,470
Estimated Recoveries 861,205
Estimated Active Cases 135,912
➥ https://txdshs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/...01e8b9cafc8b83

Gord, I know I guess by association I know of a couple of hundred people, or at least would hear about what happens to a couple of hundred people, if one got real sick. I include my Wife in those numbers as I would hear from her.

Of those couple of hundred people I know of one person that I’m not sure how sick they were but they were diagnosed and isolated from family. and that was a couple of months ago.

In my Neighborhood one person died, but it’s my understanding they were pretty much on their death bed anyway, so did they die of Covid? Did they actually have Covid or did they die from old age and decades of Pall Mall cigarettes?

I flew out to eat breakfast with the neighbors two Sundays ago, a coupe of days later I got a txt, A man and his wife tested positive, they felt bad for one day, ran a slight fever and that was all, but got tested and both tested positive so he was warning everyone he had been in contact with.

Since then I got sick for a day, slight fever and just felt bad, no respiratory issues, and a few days later my Wife fell ill, same symptoms, we haven’t been tested. I don’t see the point, I’m pretty much a hermit anyway and Social distance, wear a mask etc.
Testing only tells you about right now, I believe we should all act as if we are carriers, because we might be. To not act so is irresponsible.

If the infection rate and serious illness rate were anything near what’s being reported (5%) roughly, then just going by the math then I would know dozens that are or had been seriously ill, and I know none. The gentleman that died in my neighborhood I had never seen and didn’t know.

I am not saying Covid is a fraud or that it doesn’t kill, I’m just questioning the numbers is all, if 5% are infected, then it has an exceedingly low death rate and even an exceedingly low rate of serious illness.
So I don’t know if the 5% is incorrect or if the stated illnesses are incorrect, but the numbers just don’t add up. because thankfully even though it’s been reported in the press, I don’t believe there are freezer trucks full of the dead because they can’t be burned fast enough, there just aren’t any mass burials or even daily funeral parades that I’ve seen.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Singularity

I'm pretty certain that my brother (an EE with a handful of patents) has contributed more to society than people like you.

First off, damn right we are being deceived! But this statement?? Not even sure what to make of it? Pretty big insult? "people like you"? , who would dare criticize the official numbers? PEOPLE LIKE YOU??? = hate speech

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

In fact I’d argue that we were exceedingly lucky, Covid is actually a very tame Pandemic, nothing like MERS could have been.

In my opinion Covid could be actually a God send, an actually mild Pandemic that if we are smart that we could learn from and establish measures for containment for when the real deal comes along

We are SO, so lucky that COVID-19 didn't turn out to be worse than initially thought.

Yes this should absolutely be a wake-up call. A lot of preparation was supposedly all ready for such an occurrence, but it was either insufficient or not implemented seriously enough.

I'd like to think that this has taught us to come down hard and fast on any future pandemic. I'm worried that if so many people treat this one as no big whoop, then they'll think that about the next one too.

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If the infection rate and serious illness rate were anything near what’s being reported (5%) roughly, then just going by the math then I would know dozens that are or had been seriously ill, and I know none. The gentleman that died in my neighborhood I had never seen and didn’t know.

I am not saying Covid is a fraud or that it doesn’t kill, I’m just questioning the numbers is all, if 5% are infected, then it has an exceedingly low death rate and even an exceedingly low rate of serious illness.

So I don’t know if the 5% is incorrect or if the stated illnesses are incorrect, but the numbers just don’t add up. because thankfully even though it’s been reported in the press, I don’t believe there are freezer trucks full of the dead because they can’t be burned fast enough, there just aren’t any mass burials or even daily funeral parades that I’ve seen.

I don't know where you got that 5% number from, or if you're applying it correctly. Maybe not currently, but remember the spring where the sick were lined up in hallways and reefer trailers full of the dead? Lombardy? NYC? It's likely to happen again.

Here in Canada, our complacency about doing better than the US has been shattered as our own cases mount up. In the relatively small province of Manitoba, one town's healthcare system has been overwhelmed. It's not pretty. Other Canadian centres will face this, if we don't control the spread.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

First off, damn right we are being deceived! But this statement?? Not even sure what to make of it? Pretty big insult? "people like you"? , who would dare criticize the official numbers? PEOPLE LIKE YOU??? = hate speech

Indeed it is hate speech, just out in the open. What is being persistently said otherwise is "meh, they were sick anyway" or "they were old" which is just as repugnant...yet not called out...which why I stipulated my comment "see how that works when we [openly] go there."

Curious how many of us so readily discount the weak among the greater community, but leap to the defense of fellow "meh-ers." Sort of like a lord of the flies deal without being stranded first.

There are many 'official numbers' where frankly many here cannot discern when they are cherry picking and when they are not. My job certification holds that at least once in my life I actually understood how to understand the numbers in context. So yes, people like me interpret those numbers to make day-to-day decisions in our work.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

My father got really, really mad at me only once in my life. He was a kind and gentle man.


When I was a kid in the 50s and measles were going around, I said, "Heck, why don't we just let everyone get it!" They'd just come up with the vaccine and I was scared of needles and didn't want to get jabbed. He was a doctor - podiatrist.
He rounded on me and pointed to one of his eyes. "I lost a lot of the sight in this eye because of measles. I only wish they'd had a vaccine for it when I was your age. You WILL get the shot."
My aunt lost most of her left shoulder due to polio. I got that shot, too.
I find it irresponsible of people to be anti-vax, pro-herd immunity, and selfish. It isn't about freedom, it's about community.
I wonder if these same people haven't gotten their polio and other shots.

Measles vaccines didn't come along until 1960's. Polio epidemic ended when they changed the definition of Polio. Polio vaccines today are responsible for the spread of Polio and one of the the reasons that we are infected with a lot of cancer causing retro viruses. Lots of Polio symptoms were caused by the pesticides that they were using to supposedly tame the threat of polio. If you want to make a case for vaccines, polio is a bad example

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>


1. A lot of preparation was supposedly all ready for such an occurrence, but it was either insufficient or not implemented seriously enough.

>>>>>>>>

2. Here in Canada, our complacency about doing better than the US has been shattered as our own cases mount up. In the relatively small province of Manitoba, one town's healthcare system has been overwhelmed. It's not pretty. Other Canadian centres will face this, if we don't control the spread.

1. No, it was deliberately ignored.


2. Here in BC, Dr. Bonnie Henry has attributed it to party goers who refuse to accept that their activities are harmful - to them and their communities. Party goers include people who have been expanding their bubbles beyond their immediate families to others who may be family but beyond their own previous safe bubbles.