U.S. to close..

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I wish that anyone decrying (or advocating) LOCKDOWNS would define what they mean, by the term.
I suspect it’s really just a hyperbolic catchphrase, most often utilized as part of the Covid “infodemic”.


Indeed!

When I was in the Bahama’s, the family islands, specifically Long Island, they “Locked down” by my definition, almost house arrest if you will, I wasn’t allowed off of the boat, wasn’t even allowed to swim around the boat.
Now understand they didn’t have the police force to enforce that, but I wasn’t going to be the ugly American disobeying the host nation orders, so we stayed on the boat.
By Locked Down I mean all stores except the food store and the gas station were closed, ALL businesses closed, excepting public utilities. meaning power, water and cell phone stayed operational. I believe people weren’t allowed to leave their houses, but were allowed to exercise in their yards. Fishing ceased and fuel wasn’t allowed to be sold to boats, but you could walk to the gas station for generator fuel. NO travel at all allowed, especially from one island to another.

To me that’s a lock down.

When we got back to the US, which was supposedly locked down as we were coming in through the Ft Pierce inlet there were crowds fishing on the Jetties and just past that there were gatherings of small boats with people wading around together drinking beer. Got a temp slip to get my Main down to be repaired and walked into town to get some propane, now eating establishments and bars were closed, but EVERYTHING else was open, and the roads were packed with cars driving around going somewhere. Guys from Mack Sails drove up and took my main back to be repaired.
Not at all the Bahamian definition of “Locked Down”

That’s why I say from my observation, the US never locked down, they closed
eating places and bars and I guess didn’t have major sporting events with large gatherings, but they never stayed home, they were out driving and traveling, staying on motels and shopping for clothes, and every other item that was for sale, was still for sale. There was a short time where the amount of meat you could buy at the Commissary at NAS Jax was restricted, but that’s about it.

It was interesting to talk to people though, some who were obviously for the lock down were saying about how wonderful it was that nature was recovering, the fish were swimming now and birds were flying etc now etc.

We rented a car during the lock down and drove across State lines to get out car, the Interstate I-75 and I-10 were just as crowded as always, I expected sparse traffic. but it was crowded just as always.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

the freedumb group

Sometimes I need to remind myself that freedom is scary to some.

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Sometimes I need to remind myself that freedom is scary to some.

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin

Funny isn't it, so many pushing the Rights cart seem to forget the Respect and Responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Funny isn't it, so many pushing the Rights cart seem to forget the Respect and Responsibilities that go hand in hand with it.

As Stu and others have said, this is not a binary choice. It's not a full lock down, or open season. We're supposed to be smart enough to walk a chew gum.

We've learned a lot about how this virus transmits and spreads. Targeted closures with a modicum of responsible behaviour from the majority of people would stop the disease. Wash your hands, stay 2 metres apart, limit your gatherings to an immediate cohort, and wear a mask. If we all did this for a few weeks the virus would be stopped in its tracks.

Life isn't fair, and sometimes adults must make hard choices. But on the scale of hard tasks, this is really not much to ask. Yet too many of us can't seem to manage even these small sacrifices.

And for those who say it can't be done, look at Atlantic Canada. While Covid-19 rages all around, they remain a bubble of near-zero infection rates. While Canada is recording new cases in the thousands each day, this region might add two to ten.

So yes, it is possible, but only if people are willing to act responsibly.

[lateral]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

As Stu and others have said, this is not a binary choice. It's not a full lock down, or open season. We're supposed to be smart enough to walk a chew gum.

We've learned a lot about how this virus transmits and spreads. Targeted closures with a modicum of responsible behaviour from the majority of people would stop the disease. Wash your hands, stay 2 metres apart, limit your gatherings to an immediate cohort, and wear a mask. If we all did this for a few weeks the virus would be stopped in its tracks.

Life isn't fair, and sometimes adults must make hard choices. But on the scale of hard tasks, this is really not much to ask. Yet too many of us can't seem to manage even these small sacrifices.

And for those who say it can't be done, look at Atlantic Canada. While Covid-19 rages all around, they remain a bubble of near-zero infection rates. While Canada is recording new cases in the thousands each day, this region might add two to ten.

So yes, it is possible, but only if people are willing to act responsibly.

The need to express indignance over such minor impositions does not bode well for managing this virus.
There is a small amount here amongst the young set and expat trumpets but I have noticed a renewed vigour amongst the general populace in scanning, sanitising,distancing in the last week.Perhaps in response to 1 (total) community transmission that’s infection path could not be defined. Only other new infections recorded are at the border, imports, which are immediately quarantined.
Or, perhaps, watching some “superpowers”fck it up engenders a renewed enthusiasm?
I must say with zero new community cases
country wide for days on end makes it difficult to give it continued gravitas.


Anti-indignance hat on. Small island nation....bla bla bla. Where there’s the will, there is a way.
Oh, btw, the “ draconian fascist measures” reported by gop on how we got here are so removed from the truth well, what the point. Current USA thrives on lies and half truths.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . And for those who say it can't be done, look at Atlantic Canada. While Covid-19 rages all around, they remain a bubble of near-zero infection rates. While Canada is recording new cases in the thousands each day, this region might add two to ten. . . .

You should not jump to the conclusion that Atlantic Canada has low infections as a RESULT of people's behavior and/or measures taken. There is a lot of random chance involved in which regions or countries have high infection rates, and which ones low ones. We are not as powerful as we think -- it's not all up to us.

Perfect example is Montana where people were congratulating themselves for months for having almost no infections, then wham! One of the highest infection rates in the world. No change of measures -- it just happened.


Likewise look at places like Lithuania or Czechia -- from almost no infections to some of the highest rates in the world almost overnight.

And why are there almost no infections in Finland, very few in Estonia, and one of the worst outbreaks in the world just 100km away in Lithuania? Where the measures are exactly the same everywhere?

I certainly agree with you that we should be taking sensible measures (exactly the ones you listed ), and I BELIEVE that such measures can greatly reduce the spread of the virus, BUT I don't think science has many hard answers, nor do I believe that it is actually all in our hands.

[NevilleCat]

Personally I do think that it is mostly in our hands.
We have been dealing with viruses for centuries and I think there's a pretty good general consensus on some effective measures.
There should be no doubt that sensible measures will definitely reduce the spread of the disease. That has been proven time and again, I don't know why there is any argument about this.
All that is required is that the populace are willing to work with each other to make it happen. And that governments financially assist individuals and businesses affected.
It shouldn't be as hard as it is...this is why we pay taxes yes?
In spite of what people here sometimes seem to be asserting we do know a few things that work to limit the spread.
One of the most important after a positive test result is Contact Tracing and isolation.
This is exponentially more difficult and inefficient as the case load goes up, obviously.
And very difficult if the general populace is moving around and not protecting themselves and others.
Once case numbers come down everything becomes much more efficient and also personal.
It is easy to assume no responsibility when you have 20000 new cases a day but when you have such low numbers that each breakout event can be traced back to one person then it makes you realise the personal responsibility each of us has to limit transmission. I will also say that in Victoria's example there was no overt apportioning of blame upon individuals in these cases (apart from the political leaders; that is apparently expected) but more a realisation that what you do, matters.
If you worked when you were sick, didn't wear a mask or otherwise somehow did the wrong thing and it lead eventually to a breakout in a old folks home and people died, well no-one wants to be responsible for that.
I have no time for any argument that suggests people's personal freedoms are worth more than their personal responsibilities.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

after all the deaths of course !

anti vaxxers can survive because (a) most people take vaccines and hence the disease is suppressed, secondly the health services , typically subsidized by all taxpayers, still treats those that harm themselves and (c) liberal societies takes a tolerant view of "outliers"

None of this can be taken for granted , are people going to allow non vaccinated children's to attend school and risk others ( I know control of this has been actively considered by several nations )

freedom is isnt absolute , it has limits , you cant just do what you want without suffering consequences including consequences that remove your freedom

Anti-Vaxxers is name made up by the Pharmaceutical companies as it carries a negative connotation, you'll find most are simply about freedom of choice and are not anti-vaccines if they have the choice to take them or not. If ebola or such a serious virus was rampant in the world then most would probably take the vaccine.



Surely you do not want to give away the choice over which medical procedures you have or do not have or else where will it eventually lead?


What if when Elon Musk perfects his Neural interface chip and the government then makes that compulsory and now everyone is connected to the AI in the sky - Think the Borg. You may say what rubbish, but the erosion of freedoms and rights can happen slowly over long periods of time. The problem is when people like yourself are actually demanding that the governments take away our freedoms - You seriously need to think what you are saying here, as its a very slippery slope.



People who do not take vaccines survive not because of your points above, but because in General the illnesses they are vaccinating against are not to most of the population dangerous or fatal, as is the case with covid (yes there are a few exceptions).



I have pretty much had, as have my children and friends children all the childhood illnesses - Measles, Chickenpox, Mumps, German Measles etc. In my day no one thought anything of getting these illnesses, it was part of growing up, but today these illnesses have been demonised for profit and everyone thinks they are mass killers, but they are not - Yes people do have rare complications from them and if you are weak in anyway it can be very bad, hence the need for vaccines for such individuals, but pretty much no one in the West dies of Measles anymore as we know how to manage and treat it, in the developing world where poor water and malnutrition are rife, its a very different matter though. (Don't bother with the counter argument that they do not die because of vaccines, as I said vaccines do serve a purpose)


My issue with the covid vaccine is that there is no history to go by of Genetically Modified vaccines as they truly are experimental and these are being rushed out to the whole planet - We are taking Viruses from Chimps and modifying them or Modifying mRNA - They really have no clue what the long term side effects will be or if further mutations of their genetic virus may occur if or when it gets into the wild - You could make an excellent film about this for sure, but if it happens then the sh$t will really hit the fan.


Edit - They have already made a film -The Last Planet of the apes series had such a chimp virus!


Unlike you I have zero trust or faith in corporations or even governments, as our most recent history is littered with examples of corporate and government lies to meet agendas and reap profits at the expense of humanity.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

Anti-Vaxxers is name made up by the Pharmaceutical companies as it carries a negative connotation, you'll find most are simply about freedom of choice and are not anti-vaccines if they have the choice to take them or not. If ebola or such a serious virus was rampant in the world then most would probably take the vaccine.



Surely you do not want to give away the choice over which medical procedures you have or do not have or else where will it eventually lead?


What if when Elon Musk perfects his Neural interface chip and the government then makes that compulsory and now everyone is connected to the AI in the sky - Think the Borg. You may say what rubbish, but the erosion of freedoms and rights can happen slowly over long periods of time. The problem is when people like yourself are actually demanding that the governments take away our freedoms - You seriously need to think what you are saying here, as its a very slippery slope.



People who do not take vaccines survive not because of your points above, but because in General the illnesses they are vaccinating against are not to most of the population dangerous or fatal, as is the case with covid (yes there are a few exceptions).



I have pretty much had, as have my children and friends children all the childhood illnesses - Measles, Chickenpox, Mumps, German Measles etc. In my day no one thought anything of getting these illnesses, it was part of growing up, but today these illnesses have been demonised for profit and everyone thinks they are mass killers, but they are not - Yes people do have rare complications from them and if you are weak in anyway it can be very bad, hence the need for vaccines for such individuals, but pretty much no one in the West dies of Measles anymore as we know how to manage and treat it, in the developing world where poor water and malnutrition are rife, its a very different matter though. (Don't bother with the counter argument that they do not die because of vaccines, as I said vaccines do serve a purpose)


My issue with the covid vaccine is that there is no history to go by of Genetically Modified vaccines as they truly are experimental and these are being rushed out to the whole planet - We are taking Viruses from Chimps and modifying them or Modifying mRNA - They really have no clue what the long term side effects will be or if further mutations of their genetic virus may occur if or when it gets into the wild - You could make an excellent film about this for sure, but if it happens then the sh$t will really hit the fan.


Edit - They have already made a film -The Last Planet of the apes series had such a chimp virus!


Unlike you I have zero trust or faith in corporations or even governments, as our most recent history is littered with examples of corporate and government lies to meet agendas and reap profits at the expense of humanity.

There are Viral Vector Vaccines. Not all the vaccines are mRNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_vector

Most of the ones in China are those types. Johnson andJohnson plus oxford university were also developing them but appear to have stopped.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by requiem

Unfortunately ever since some muppets decided that turning covid into a political wedge issue would be a brilliant idea the UK and the US pretty much screwed themselves...
... I had a hard time thinking I wasn't reading The Onion when I saw the news about Charles Koch coming to realize how much of a mistake stoking partisanship had been...

And yet, the Wall Street Journal, citing Center for Responsive Politics data, said Koch’s PAC donated $2.8 million to Republican candidates, compared to $221,000 for Democrats, during the 2020 election cycle.
Actions ≠ Words

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yihang

There are Viral Vector Vaccines. Not all the vaccines are mRNA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_vector

Most of the ones in China are those types. Johnson andJohnson plus oxford university were also developing them but appear to have stopped.

There are 2 in the UK that are genetically modified Chimp viruses spliced with Covid and Pfizer is mRNA - Not sure about the others, but with covid all bets are off, so risk taking is the name of the game - Full immunity and trillions of $ profit, whats not to like if you are a vaccine producer.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Sometimes I need to remind myself that freedom is scary to some.
“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin

Misquoting, quoting out of context (contextomy), and misappropriating rhetoric, in a way that distorts the source’s intended meaning, arises from the need to push an ideological mindset, rather than investigate truth.
It’s no shocker, then, that (often libertarian) campaigns, and ideological works, have been the culprits of butchering Franklin’s words.

Franklin was writing about a tax dispute, between the Pennsylvania General Assembly, and the family of the Penns, the proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony, who ruled it from afar. The legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands, to pay for frontier defense, during the French and Indian War. There were raids on these frontier towns. And he regarded the ability of a community to defend itself, as the essential liberty, that it would be contemptible to trade.
The Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto those taxes.
Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern.
And so he actually meant purchase a little temporary safety very literally. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money, in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

Franklin was voicing a pro-taxation, and pro-defense spending, sentiment, defending the authority of a legislature to govern, in the interests of collective security.
Not freedom from government; but freedom of government.

Franklin’s letter (see 2ND last paragraph) ➥ https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Franklin/01-06-02-0107

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

There are 2 in the UK that are genetically modified Chimp viruses spliced with Covid and Pfizer is mRNA - Not sure about the others, but with covid all bets are off, so risk taking is the name of the game - Full immunity and trillions of $ profit, whats not to like if you are a vaccine producer.

Hate to say it but If I had to choose right now I'd probably choose the vaccine made by a government who's priority is to keep the people happy and themselves in power rather than Big pharma who's CEO just sold off a bunch of his stocks and if anything goes wrong will get a pardon.

[Dockhead]

Hot off the press:


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/16/h...a-vaccine.html


ANOTHER vaccine with 90%+ efficacy, in this case 95%+!!!


Yippee! This is FANTASTIC NEWS. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter.


All you anti-vaxers out there -- just don't worry about it. The rest of us will get our own shots, and we'll protect you. There aren't enough of you to stop herd immunity, so it's all good.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Sometimes I need to remind myself that freedom is scary to some.

“Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Benjamin Franklin

Franklin said this specifically in the circumstance where his colony was faced with an existential/lethal threat to the lives of those on the periphery of Pennsylvania where he was trying to levy a tax on the rich to raise funds to deal with the threat/save the frontiersmen, but there was a push back against taxing the rich. Read Franklin here. So your understanding of the statement is just like polar opposite wrong. Franklin was suggesting that people like you who'd cut the fringe members of their society loose for personal convenience don't deserve liberty or safety.

As the saying goes, history doesn't exactly repeat itself, but it tends to rhyme. Back in Franklin's time the "don't piss off the rich" holdouts shortly afterwards went after the rich, which caused fireworks. I must assume that then, as is now, a large percent of the population saw the rich as the 'jobs creators' and such, as it's always the case that a large percent of people fundamentally need a master or else they get squirrely.

Paradoxically (but not to Hegel) modern people who most use the words liberty and freedom are the kind of people who seek masters in the first place where, if the master is a good one, the master will just tell you that you're supposed to help the fringe members of the community (eg Franklin) or, if a bad master, he tells you all you problems are caused by the fringe members and he sends you out to kill them (e.g. American plantation owners after slaves were freed/KKK, Hitler, ____ x10^23).

In other words, there's more to history than soundbites.