U.S. to close..

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

And - with the good news coming on the vaccination front, it's just a matter of maintaining some control on spread by other means for the next 4 to 6 months or so. Not years.

I'm pretty sure the whole anti mask thing will morph into anti vaccine thing . For good reasons I'll admit. If people dont want to wear a mask they sure as hell not gonna get vaccinated. I would not assume any countrywide vaccination..........ever.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Which is why many of us have been trying to remind all of us that this is NOT a BINARY issue.

What is so hard about wearing a mask?
What is so hard about social distancing?
What is so hard about washing your hands often?
What is so hard about NOT having superspreader events like weddings?
What is so hard about keeping non-essential travel down?

I just talked to a cousin of mine in FL. One of her kid's daughters is insisting on a wedding, and has culled it down from 200 to 80 people. That's still 70 too many!!! Get married if you must to live with the guy of your dreams. Have the f-ing party later when it's f-ing SAFE to do so?

What is so hard????????

Too many of you are conflating a worldwide HEALTH crisis and the EXTREMELY LIMITED things we KNOW that can help, not cure anything with personal freedom. NOTHING is different about the transmission of this virus since last January.

My "thing" about personal freedom is staying alive.

Nothing’s hard, it’s also easy for me to dress as a giant chicken, or only make right turns in my car, I just don’t choose to do that, I’m not sick, I’m not worried about it, but you’re free to do it if you want.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Just wondering aloud for a moment...

Regarding the mask wearing thing and whether the state has the right to mandate masks etc, don't most states already mandate minimum clothing requirements for everyone in public spaces. If so, why isn't anyone taking umbrage at those laws?

Perhaps SalingSue could comment.

Perhaps we could later force women to wear burkas?

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

No you desire it to be undeniable.
I love how you guys continue to deny what Dockhead has said several times, that several different countries with identical measures being taken have had very different results in infection rates.
It’s not as simple as you want it to be, people want to believe they can control things, that if they do X, then their desired outcome will happen, but that’s it always the case. One city may become a hot spot, that doesn’t mean they weren’t following the rules while another remains fairly clear shows they follow the rules.

This is just wrong. You can repeat something that is some combination of wrong, fabricated, whatever, but it's still wrong.

If you want to listen to a lawyer spin yarns, so be it. It's been said multiple times that comparing apples to oranges makes no sense. If science and logic is a thing, you examine a same-system reference frame over time drawing inference between positively correlated observations. In other words, when you look at the infection rate in a single state before infection control measures where instituted, witness a response, employ stricter measure, see again greater capture of the infection rate......well f-me that's what most people on the planet call cause and effect.

It's difficult enough to get buy in to asking people to do the equivalent of washing their hands.....without having people who can't figure out how to wash their hands running around saying "gosh, all that washing hands business is difficult....like magic, sometimes they're dirty, sometimes not!"

No one advocates for lockdowns. Just controlled measures that frankly some here admit to not adhering to in the first place, so it's no wonder that they contort themselves to cherry pick obscure observations to explain themselves to themselves.

[SeanPatrick]

So - after 32 pages of discussion - has anyone figured out what the U.S. is too close to?

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

So - after 32 pages of discussion - has anyone figured out what the U.S. is too close to?

Idiocy..???

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Idiocy..???

I believe to some it's called freedom and liberty.

"My rights trump your safety, I repeat my rights trump your safety"

Good luck guys.

[Yihang]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFeY...%3ATheNational

Japanese people are like '????????'

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

So - after 32 pages of discussion - has anyone figured out what the U.S. is too close to?

Canada?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Norway had and had home quarantining with severe fines , plus mandatory stay at home orders described as the most severe measures outside wartime , it shut businesses etc.

I don’t believe there is any constitutional issues


Equally Denmark has just announced its considering a severe lockdown and was one of the first European countries to have a “ lockdown”

“Denmark was one of the first European countries to announce a lockdown on March 11, restricting public gatherings and closing schools, restaurants and bars, but imposing less strict limits on daily life than in Italy or France.”

You are being misled by sloppy use in the press of the word "lockdown".

Some businesses and some schools were closed in all of the Nordic countries. Restaurants were closed or restricted; public gatherings were banned; private gatherings were limited. Home quarantine was imposed on infected and exposed people. All this happened everywhere in the Nordics including Sweden. But this is not lockdown - lockdown is confining whole populations to their homes; blanket restrictions of movement; mass closing of workplaces. This happened all over Europe, but not in the Nordic and Baltic States, and not in Germany (on a national level; a couple of the Länder had regional lockdowns).

In Sweden and Finland, which have constitutional bans on "ministerial rule", which means that health authorities are not subject to political control, no lockdown was primarily chosen for scientific, public health reasons - it was considered that lockdown would have severe negative public health consequences and with no science-based evidence of efficacy. In Denmark, the health authorities were even more adamant against exaggerating the measures, but the Danish Constitution, unlike Finnish and Swedish ones, leaves these decisions to the politicians, and the politicians closed schools over the objections of the health authorities, which later became a scandal, especially since there is now a consensus in the Nordic Region that school closings have little epidemiological benefit while causing immense social harm. But the Danish politicians did follow the advice of the scientists against a lockdown. In Norway, besides closed international borders, there was a ban on inter regional travel which kept people from getting to their dachas. This was the measure considered "strictest in peacetime", and is now widely considered to have been a mistake.

In Finland and Sweden the constitutions don't allow mass restrictions on freedom of movement in peace time, and that was cited as another reason against lockdown (in Sweden the government doesn't even have the power to declare a state of emergency except in war time). I'm not sure about Norway and Denmark, but I would be surprised if it's different. I'll look it up when I'm near a computer.

I'm the personal beneficiary of the Finnish rights - as a legal Finnish resident, I have the right to leave whenever I please and no matter what, and the right to come back whenever I please and no matter what. This was a great help to me during the grim spring days if closed borders

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm the personal beneficiary of the Finnish rights - as a legal Finnish resident, I have the right to leave whenever I please and no matter what, and the right to come back whenever I please and no matter what. This was a great help to me during the grim spring days if closed borders

With quarantine or without quarantine? Most if not all countries allow its citizens to comeback to a quarantine.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I believe to some it's called freedom and liberty.

"My rights trump your safety, I repeat my rights trump your safety"

Good luck guys.

Probably because once you lose your rights they are very hard to get back and everyone should ultimately be responsible for their own safety and not rely on other members of the populace who they do not know to protect them - That is just a fools errand.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by UFO

Probably because once you lose your rights they are very hard to get back and everyone should ultimately be responsible for their own safety and not rely on other members of the populace who they do not know to protect them - That is just a fools errand.

Pretty hard to fight a virus by yourself. That's like one person bailing out a sinking ship when everyone else is shooting holes into it.

But like I said even with a government mandate 48% of the population is always going to be against it just because it's their right to do so.

Maybe their 'right' is all these people have left in this changing world.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Yihang

With quarantine or without quarantine? Most if not all countries allow its citizens to comeback to a quarantine.

Australia, for example, does not allow its own citizens back except according to quotas, and then you are required to stay in very expensive supervised quarantine basically under house arrest.

In Finland, you are supposed to quarantine in case you've been in high infection countries. But like most of the measures in all of the Nordic countries, it's recommended, not legally obligatory, and they don't check.

That whole regime will change on 27 November, when anyone can enter Finland from anywhere and for any purpose, provided they present a fresh COVID test, then voluntarily self-isolate for 5 days until they take another COVID test. They now have sniffer dogs at Finnish airports which can smell COVID infections more reliably than a PCR test, and contact tracing in Finland now catches in excess of 60% of new cases.



All this is bloody good, and Finland has the lowest rate of infection in Europe by far, and life goes on as normal. HOWEVER, I am afraid we are riding for a fall -- people are not wearing masks much, restaurants are full of crowds of drunk people (unlike in Sweden where restaurants are required to space out tables and forbidden from serving food except at a table, in Finland they operate like before the pandemic, just with a recently imposed early closing time, I think 23:00). Look at Lithuania to see how the virus can just explode almost overnight, a country which had basically no infections through the summer.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Australia, for example, does not allow its own citizens back except according to quotas, and then you are required to stay in very expensive supervised quarantine basically under house arrest.

In Finland, you are supposed to quarantine in case you've been in high infection countries. But like most of the measures in all of the Nordic countries, it's recommended, not legally obligatory, and they don't check.

That whole regime will change on 27 November, when anyone can enter Finland from anywhere and for any purpose, provided they present a fresh COVID test, then voluntarily self-isolate for 5 days until they take another COVID test. They now have sniffer dogs at Finnish airports which can smell COVID infections more reliably than a PCR test, and contact tracing in Finland now catches in excess of 60% of new cases.



All this is bloody good, and Finland has the lowest rate of infection in Europe by far, and life goes on as normal. HOWEVER, I am afraid we are riding for a fall -- people are not wearing masks much, restaurants are full of crowds of drunk people (unlike in Sweden where restaurants are required to space out tables and forbidden from serving food except at a table, in Finland they operate like before the pandemic, just with a recently imposed early closing time, I think 23:00). Look at Lithuania to see how the virus can just explode almost overnight, a country which had basically no infections through the summer.

This reminds me of my uncle escaping the SAR outbreak to Australia. He had several cloves of garlic in his mouth the entire flight. I'm not sure the sniffer dogs would have detected anything.


Contact tracing APPs really work, I see finland has a 25% take up rate. Make that 100% in China, maybe that's why. But this will obviously not work in the states. Imagine if someone even suggested a government mandated app that you had to have which tracked your movements.