U.S. to close..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Yihang

. . .Contact tracing APPs really work, I see finland has a 25% take up rate. Make that 100% in China, maybe that's why. But this will obviously not work in the states. Imagine if someone even suggested a government mandated app that you had to have which tracked your movements.

The privacy concerns are not trivial.


Contact tracing in Finland is done mostly by humans, not with the app. In Finland it is impossible to require anyone to use the app; perhaps this is true everywhere in Europe. This is a cultural and legal difference between Europe and China.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yup. As I've been saying, I think one of the most significant factors in how nations or regions responds and fares is how able the people are to work collectively together toward a greater good. This is all wrapped up in levels of societal trust and social capital.
This somewhat amorphous, but still very real factor has been studied and measured. The OECD has a whole special project quantifying this concept ...

Do you recall the title of this OECD project?

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The privacy concerns are not trivial.


Contact tracing in Finland is done mostly by humans, not with the app. In Finland it is impossible to require anyone to use the app; perhaps this is true everywhere in Europe. This is a cultural and legal difference between Europe and China.

Only 8 states in the US require a warrant for the police to access your location Data. If the government wants it they can get it.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-...ing-laws-state

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Only 8 states in the US require a warrant for the police to access your location Data. If the government wants it they can get it.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy-...ing-laws-state

And your point is?

Many people find this horrifying. Edward Snowden (a hero of mine) exposed even far more horrifying things than this. That is not the reason to just throw in the towel and give up trying to have any privacy.

I do use the Finnish contact tracing app, because I trust the way they protect the data. Much more than I trust Google by the way. But I don't blame others for being skeptical. In our culture, privacy, although under relentless assault, is a real thing, and many of us keep up the good fight to preserve it.

[NevilleCat]

Yes Finland has done very well, especially the death figures.
But your current daily new cases figures would be certainly seen as cause for concern in Australia and stricter measures would certainly be in place. (UFO would be arcing up again!)
Of course Australia has strict border control measures in place as, for most of the country the virus was eradicated within the community and the case figures were related to returned travelers in quarantine.
Even so there is the beginnings of a new outbreak in Adelaide as the virus has escaped a quarantine program. Hopefully it has been caught in time for efficient contact tracing and isolation to help control it.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And your point is?

Many people find this horrifying. Edward Snowden (a hero of mine) exposed even far more horrifying things than this. That is not the reason to just throw in the towel and give up trying to have any privacy.

I do use the Finnish contact tracing app, because I trust the way they protect the data. Much more than I trust Google by the way. But I don't blame others for being skeptical. In our culture, privacy, although under relentless assault, is a real thing, and many of us keep up the good fight to preserve it.

I respect that.

I doubt I'll ever be interesting enough for the government to take an interest in my whereabouts.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Yes Finland has done very well, especially the death figures.
But your current daily new cases figures would be certainly seen as cause for concern in Australia and stricter measures would certainly be in place. (UFO would be arcing up again!)
Of course Australia has strict border control measures in place as, for most of the country the virus was eradicated within the community and the case figures were related to returned travelers in quarantine.
Even so there is the beginnings of a new outbreak in Adelaide as the virus has escaped a quarantine program. Hopefully it has been caught in time for efficient contact tracing and isolation to help control it.

Just trying to keep you all honest......

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... They now have sniffer dogs at Finnish airports which can smell COVID infections more reliably than a PCR test, and contact tracing in Finland now catches in excess of 60% of new cases...

That is interesting and 'good' news. There's no need to overstate the case, though.

Although the research is not due for completion until December, the team say the initial findings appear broadly in line with detection rates of the nasal PCR tests also conducted on arriving travellers.
"We have done 16-17,000 PCR tests at the airport and less than one percent are positive," Timo Aronkyto, deputy mayor of Vantaa, told reporters.
Compared to the results found by the dogs, "they are about the same, I don't think there is a statistical difference," Aronkyto said.

Authorities in Vantaa, the city where Helsinki’s international airport is located, said the pilot programme, which is due to last four months, was costing €300,000 (£274,000) , which it said was significantly lower than for laboratory-based testing methods.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Hot off the press:


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/16/h...a-vaccine.html


ANOTHER vaccine with 90%+ efficacy, in this case 95%+!!!


Yippee! This is FANTASTIC NEWS. The light at the end of the tunnel is getting brighter.


All you anti-vaxers out there -- just don't worry about it. The rest of us will get our own shots, and we'll protect you. There aren't enough of you to stop herd immunity, so it's all good.

Thanks Dockhead, you're a real Storm trooper Although I thought you have already had covid so why would you have the Vaccine?


FYI Not an Anti-Vaxxer, just pro choice - The world can jab away to their hearts content.

[atoll]

i would suspect for vaccination to be effective you will need to have an international certificate of vaccination to cross any international border in future,similar to the current WHO protocol for yellow fever

https://www.who.int/ith/ith_country_list.pdf

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I'm pretty sure the whole anti mask thing will morph into anti vaccine thing . For good reasons I'll admit. If people dont want to wear a mask they sure as hell not gonna get vaccinated. I would not assume any countrywide vaccination..........ever.

You may be right... but if the vaccines do reduce or eliminate the chance of the receiver becoming seriously ill, then the refusniks will mainly be infecting each other. Freedom! I fully expect that once this is apparent, many of them will slink off to their doctors for the vaccine, on their way to the next liberty rally...

In the spring, we're going to have data that will show that in the areas that maintained good compliance with masks, physical distance, no big gatherings, they will have knocked the stuffing out of influenza as well. You might even see greater uptake of general mask wear, as practised in some Asian countries.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

That is interesting and 'good' news. There's no need to overstate the case, though.. . .

Initial reports were greater accuracy for the dogs than PCR tests. If at the end of the day the accuracy turns out to be somewhat more, equal, or somewhat less, is really immaterial. The GREAT news about this, is that you can screen passengers in real time, without diverting them to take a test and without making them wait for results. It's the TIME aspect which is big news here. This has profound implications for international travel.

I crossed the Finnish border a couple of hours ago -- and was sniffed.

I can testify that altogether the border situation is profoundly different and better than it was in the spring. I am travelling between countries in this region a few times a week and it is only slightly less convenient than it was before the pandemic. And the pandemic controls at the border are being implemented everywhere in a friendly and pleasant way -- it's great progress.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You may be right... but if the vaccines do reduce or eliminate the chance of the receiver becoming seriously ill, then the refusniks will mainly be infecting each other. Freedom! I fully expect that once this is apparent, many of them will slink off to their doctors for the vaccine, on their way to the next liberty rally...

In the spring, we're going to have data that will show that in the areas that maintained good compliance with masks, physical distance, no big gatherings, they will have knocked the stuffing out of influenza as well. You might even see greater uptake of general mask wear, as practised in some Asian countries.

I am guessing you are right about this.


Although the science isn't entirely clear (contrary to what some people have asserted in this thread), I think we know enough, and the cost of masking is low enough (although far from zero), that legal mask mandates are a good idea. Not going as far as Poland, where you have to wear a mask outdoors, but at least in public transport and crowded public INDOOR places.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Initial reports were greater accuracy for the dogs than PCR tests. If at the end of the day the accuracy turns out to be somewhat more, equal, or somewhat less, is really immaterial. The GREAT news about this, is that you can screen passengers in real time, without diverting them to take a test and without making them wait for results. It's the TIME aspect which is big news here. This has profound implications for international travel.

Yes. Doggie treats will become banned substances.

Seriously, these are great developments.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UFO

Thanks Dockhead, you're a real Storm trooper Although I thought you have already had covid so why would you have the Vaccine?

FYI Not an Anti-Vaxxer, just pro choice - The world can jab away to their hearts content.

I had COVID 11 months ago, so I do not count on still being immune next year. Therefore, I will be standing in line when the vaccine comes out. And I will go these days to get my annual flu vaccine.

I am pro-choice about vaccination too, but only up to the point that anti-vaxxers are not menacing public health. If it gets to that point, states can force people to be vaccinated -- that is valid constitutional law in the U.S. Don't know about other countries.