U.S. to close..

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Singularity

Recall that the Third Reich had their own euthanasia program that helped buttress the war effort, not wasting resources on the infirm.

So irony as only the universe can provide, you find the youth of today who recognize the US soldiers' efforts to defeat the fascists and stuff like euthanasia as honorable, who characterize the extraordinary efforts made by Americans back home (back then) as communistic, who decades later, when those people who made the concessions to fight the fascists and stuff like euthanasia...the youth of today bark to not make personal concessions themselves, while being okay with keeping restaurants joints open for sit-down customers, even if it means old war heroes dying early. That there is internally invalid logic, the only true irrationality that exists.

For me it’s a fight for the bill or rights, all gov are like brown bears.

Very cute and nice when they are small.

But when they get big they eat you.

You can’t keep a animal from growing up, but you can keep a government in check. The second they overstep a right you need a immediate and full force reaction, any assault on one right is a attack on them all. A small government can never turn into a nazi or China type situation, but you give a gov enough power because you’re lazy/weak/cowardly and want to delegate critical thinking and personal responsibility, or worse you actually think “safety” is a product that the regime can trade your rights for, well that’s how mass graves and chinas happen.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

And yes, any government who would force me, at gun point, to strap a mask over my face, that is a government that needs to be put back in its place.

Who's putting a gun in your face, over a mask? (I hope it's a sanitized gun)

The worst is a stern talking-to and a fine, or not being allowed into somewhere. Oh the horror.

(and you really need to learn a bit about how China became China, and get to make all our stuff)

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Who's putting a gun in your face, over a mask? (I hope it's a sanitized gun)

The worst is a stern talking-to and a fine, or not being allowed into somewhere. Oh the horror.

(and you really need to learn a bit about how China became China, and get to make all our stuff)

Ultimately that would be the police officers gun.

“Ask, tell, make”

https://www.tacticaltangents.com/bulletin/asktellmake/

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

For me it’s a fight for the bill or rights, all gov are like brown bears.

Very cute and nice when they are small.

But when they get big they eat you.

You can’t keep a animal from growing up, but you can keep a government in check. The second they overstep a right you need a immediate and full force reaction, any assault on one right is a attack on them all. A small government can never turn into a nazi or China type situation, but you give a gov enough power because you’re lazy/weak/cowardly and want to delegate critical thinking and personal responsibility, or worse you actually think “safety” is a product that the regime can trade your rights for, well that’s how mass graves and chinas happen.

I reckon you have lost the fight then.
Just who is currently the most powerful government on planet earth?
And who allows you to have "your rights"?

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Wotname

...And who allows you to have "your rights"?

The country that manufactures and exports the fireworks we use to celebrate independence day from England in exchange for US treasury IOUs.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I reckon you have lost the fight then.
Just who is currently the most powerful government on planet earth?
And who allows you to have "your rights"?

Rights are not “allowed”.

Thankfully the founders, having survived a tyrannical government, crafted the bill of rights, it is at the will of the people that the government is allowed to govern, remember the American people have fired a government before.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Rights are not “allowed”.

Thankfully the founders, having survived a tyrannical government, crafted the bill of rights, it is at the will of the people that the government is allowed to govern, remember the American people have fired a government before.

Of course right are "allowed." They're not some mystical creation. They are created by societies; IOW people. Your rights stand on an edifice of human construction, and hence can be taken away or altered just as easily.

This is absolutely why we need to guard against overreach of any authority or power, be it government or private. I've written about how I am concerned the lessons our so-called "free" societies are learning from this whole pandemic response. Authoritarianism is already on the ascendancy in many of our "democracies." It has been disturbingly easy to wipe away many freedoms at the stroke of an executive pen. And there's no better excuse than a crisis, where there is a need to do good.

Don't for a minute think I am arguing that the Covid-19 pandemic isn't very real. It is. And the responses our societies have made are generally reasonable and rational. But that doesn't alter the fact that those in power are expanding their power. And power rarely gives back power once gained.

But to think rights are somehow "inalienable" is to live in a fantasy. That's what makes them precious. They are extremely fragile, as this whole pandemic is once again showing us.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Rights are not “allowed”.

Thankfully the founders, having survived a tyrannical government, crafted the bill of rights, it is at the will of the people that the government is allowed to govern, remember the American people have fired a government before.

which is exactly what just happened!
Excuse the pun, Trump your fired! the american people have chosen to replace you and the party you represent.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Singularity

The country that manufactures and exports the fireworks we use to celebrate independence day from England in exchange for US treasury IOUs.

Apparently parts of the voting machines also.....

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

Seems like wherever I go when talk of this pandemic comes up someone mentions that there are too many people in the world.

It’s even been mentioned in this thread.

I haven kept track but from now on I’m going to make a note of whether the people promoting reducing the global population are against vaccinations or promoting vaccinations.

This reminds me of Elayna's comments about too many people in the world causing damage to the environemnt on sailing la vagabond then Riley said 'hang on, you just had a baby', I think they will probably have another one. I guess people always think they are the exception.

I guess good on the CCP for the one child policy?

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

...I haven kept track but from now on I’m going to make a note of whether the people promoting reducing the global population are against vaccinations or promoting vaccinations.

The AGW-is-fake people tend to be the virus-is-fake people; seeing the virus as fake tends to reduce the population, in turn reducing AGW, such that there's no feedback mechanism to cause these people to learn about AGW, viruses, science.

Meanwhile the AGW nail-gnashers are the virus is real people, favoring preserving life, making AGW worse, where they end up exacertbating AGW, requiring more science.

Interesting to watch evolutionary biology at work.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Yeah, except no one thinks the virus is a hoax, just that the reaction is 1000x worse than the virus.

So worry about you and your family, do what as a adult you think is best for you and your family, it don’t try to make that choice for mine, I’m not having any of it, no one in my family is ether, we all expect to get the virus anyways, presuming we didn’t already have it.

How about doing what is best for people you don't even know?

My rights are not privileges, not suggestions, they are written very clearly, best if people stay in their own lane, if you’re scared, stay home or wear whatever costume makes you feel better, but don’t try to push that on others.

This right here is the problem.
You are the problem.
This is why America is such a mess.
This pig-headed denial of your responsibility towards other members of society and the assumption that your leaders feel the same way and therefore you will somehow be giving up some of your "Rights" on a permanent rather than temporary basis.
I feel sad for you, and sad for your once great united society now so fractured. It doesn't have to be that way.
It was not that long ago when JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Policy 101 isn't quite that simple, nor entirely non-controversial.
When you disagree with someone who's right, one of the legitimate labels could be misinformation.

Triage is the process of sorting people, based on their need for immediate medical treatment, as compared to their chance of benefiting from such care, when limited medical resources must be allocated to maximize the number of survivors.
During infectious disease outbreaks, like Covid-19, triage is particularly important to separate patients likely to be infected with the pathogen of concern.
In crisis situations, such as pandemics, the admission and decision making processes can change significantly, if there are insufficient resources for care, as each decision taken for one patient, may affect the decision making for other patients.

Triaging, guided by benefit maximization, would rather favour the group that is severely affected, and needs treatment urgently, but is still well enough to be likely to profit from treatment. In fact, the conventional triaging process (e.g. in mass disaster) explicitly advocates excluding those who are least likely to benefit from treatment, as well as those not in urgent need of care, if resources are constrained.

Benefit can most effectively be maximized, not at the level of triaging those who have fallen seriously ill, but at the population level, where disease prevention in the general and vulnerable populations, and in the healthcare workforce is key.

Maximizing benefit under conditions of scarcity can mean different things: it could refer to
saving as many people as possible,
to saving the greatest possible number of life years,
or to saving the greatest amount of quality adjusted life years (QALYs), with the resources available.
and more.
Depending on which criterion is applied, resource allocation might look quite different.

Saving as many life years as possible would favour young people, whereas maximizing QALYs would favour those with a capacity to lead long, healthy, independent lives.
The question of whether people who are of instrumental value (e.g. healthcare workers), should be prioritized, is an additional consideration compatible with the overall idea of maximizing benefit.

I have studied, taught, and written published works on policy and policy-making, and advised politicians, so my knowledge goes somewhat beyond Policy 101.

What you write is generally true, and there are of course different approaches to allocation of resources to preserve human life and maximize social benefit on a broad population level. This process is not usually called "triage", because usually not only saving lives is involved, as is the case here. QALY is a finer instrument than life-years, and is often used in health economics for policymaking involving health care resources with focused groups of people, but is not generally used at population levels involving also effects on healthy people (like here), because data about life quality of whole populations is generally scanty. For such questions, life-years, although somewhat cruder than QALY, is the go-to metric.

What is basically never used by professionals to formulate policy intended to save human life is a simple life for life calcuation, notwithstanding what some naive people aggressively insist. For the reasons which I explained. I would not call someone's sincerely held opinions to the contrary, however unlearned, "misinformation", as that is rude and insulting. In a civilized discussion all you can do is offer better information and let people figure it out for themselves.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

This right here is the problem.
You are the problem.
This is why America is such a mess.
This pig-headed denial of your responsibility towards other members of society and the assumption that your leaders feel the same way and therefore you will somehow be giving up some of your "Rights" on a permanent rather than temporary basis.
I feel sad for you, and sad for your once great united society now so fractured. It doesn't have to be that way.
It was not that long ago when JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you...

Quoted for truth

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I had COVID 11 months ago, so I do not count on still being immune next year. Therefore, I will be standing in line when the vaccine comes out. And I will go these days to get my annual flu vaccine.

I am pro-choice about vaccination too, but only up to the point that anti-vaxxers are not menacing public health. If it gets to that point, states can force people to be vaccinated -- that is valid constitutional law in the U.S. Don't know about other countries.

You should go for a test and see if you still have immunity - That would be an interesting thing to find out and share.


Forcing everyone into medical procedures (vaccines) for something that is only dangerous to a very small % of the population to me seems like a massive infringement of everyone's personal rights and freedoms and I would certainly not be hanging around in any country that does that - Its not ebola or something worse!



Also, once they have crossed that line then what is to stop them forcing other medical procedures under any pretense real or even false - They want to control population levels then hey lets jab 50% and make them infertile - It's not beyond the realms of possibility - Keep giving away your rights and freedoms and one day it will come to something like that, not for us, but a few generations down the line.


Anyway I can not see that happening just yet, but as someone else stated they will make it hard for you to work or travel to certain countries unless you have been jabbed - Australia is already doing this with normal vaccines - Young kids can't go to school and they remove certain benefits, which enforces the poor to be vaccinated.