U.S. to close..

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Irrational hatred of lawyers, which we have seen frequently expressed, is no different from irrational hatred of black people, of hippies, of dentists, or whatever.

My hatred of lawyers comes from many years of experience, thank you.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Of course right are "allowed." They're not some mystical creation. They are created by societies; IOW people. Your rights stand on an edifice of human construction, and hence can be taken away or altered just as easily.

Ahem ...

Originally Posted by The Founding Fathers

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I don't know how things are wherever you come from, but here it is a fundamental principle that our rights are god-given and that no man can take them away. Our courts have continuously upheld that ideal right up to the present day. And [an attempt at] taking those rights away is not "easy". One must amend the Constitution to do that.


Our Constitution does not grant anyone anything. It restricts our government from infringing on our birth-rights. Only one amendment in our history succeeded in restricting a right of the people (the 18th), and it was repealed just 16 years later. Almost every other amendment has further restricted the power of our government.


That's why we will always own guns, be loud and obnoxious and generally annoy everyone else. Because we can. And we won't even expect a "thank you" for all the foreign aid and assistance.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Rights are not “allowed”.

Thankfully the founders, having survived a tyrannical government, crafted the bill of rights, it is at the will of the people that the government is allowed to govern, remember the American people have fired a government before.

We "fired" a government by force and through civil war (which we called "revolution") almost 250 years ago. You think anyone is going to do that now? Today our government, with over a million people under arms, armed to the teeth, will squash any kind of armed insurrection like a bug. This is a Boogaloo Boys adolescent fantasy. Like it or not, tyrannical or not, this government is what we have, and there is no force on earth which could dislodge it. We are not in 1776 anymore.

Our influence over how we are governed does not, contrary to popular belief, come from the Bill of Rights. Few of the individual rights enumerated in or implied in the Bill of Rights cannot be overridden for a "compelling government interest" (the "strict scrutiny" test). It is rather the BODY of the Constitution, which provides PROCESSES through which the People have a certain degree of influence over how we are governed, mostly through voting. If you don't like what you get to vote for, then there's not much else you can do other than running for office yourself. We are not nearly as free as you think.


Mike is right about the expansion of state power during the pandemic. But it's our own fault. People want nothing more than to be told what to do during a crisis, and to have their neighbors forced to do it. You can see this mentality even in these threads.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Today our government, with over a million people under arms, armed to the teeth, will squash any kind of armed insurrection like a bug.

Do you [and this question is for everyone else, too] think U.S. soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines/coast guardsmen would open fire on the people? And by "people", I mean not a small group of teenagers burning and looting a particular city. I mean mass dissatisfaction with the government. I'm genuinely interested to know as many people's opinions on this as possible.


I live in an area with a lot of U.S. military personnel. I ask as many of them as I can this same question. I have only ever gotten one kind of answer.

[Yihang]

These people?



and these people?






Everyone just defending their 'rights' with AR15s and snipers scopes....sticky situation.


This is crazy. 2 years ago I drove around the states for a month living out of a tent in national parks. Had nothing be friendly greetings and good memories.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Yihang

These people?

If you look again, I specifically said "mass dissatisfaction". There are over 300 million people in the U.S. That is not "mass" here. Unless you count BMI.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

Ahem ...





I don't know how things are wherever you come from, but here it is a fundamental principle that our rights are god-given and that no man can take them away. Our courts have continuously upheld that ideal right up to the present day. And [an attempt at] taking those rights away is not "easy". One must amend the Constitution to do that.


Our Constitution does not grant anyone anything. It restricts our government from infringing on our birth-rights. Only one amendment in our history succeeded in restricting a right of the people (the 18th), and it was repealed just 16 years later. Almost every other amendment has further restricted the power of our government.


That's why we will always own guns, be loud and obnoxious and generally annoy everyone else. Because we can. And we won't even expect a "thank you" for all the foreign aid and assistance.

Hmm... well we only have the people's version of who has what rightsi.e. the guys who wrote your constitution. There is no collaborating document from the creator. That's probably why they thew in the 'self-evident' bit. It seems more than likely the people gave the rights to themselves - nothing wrong with that of course.

But for the sake of argument, let's say the creator did bestow such certain unalienable Rights and also that all men are created equal (as stated). It follows then that such rights apply to all men (people), not just the ones in the USA. It seems though, your courts don't apply these principles to non USA citizens. Is it because non USA citizens aren't created by the same creator or did your founding fathers cut a special deal for just Americans?

Lot's problems with this concept so maybe it doesn't hold water.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Mike is right about the expansion of state power during the pandemic. But it's our own fault. People want nothing more than to be told what to do during a crisis, and to have their neighbors forced to do it. You can see this mentality even in these threads.

Spot on - People are begging to have their rights removed, but you must remember that they have been manipulated through the media with the non stop spreading of fear - In the early days it was all about the death rate and some truly made up projections, that even a pre-schooler should have been able to call out but people bought it and when deaths tapered off it was all about the infection rate - They have kept driving it home - Fear is a great way to control and dominate a population.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

If you look again, I specifically said "mass dissatisfaction". There are over 300 million people in the U.S. That is not "mass" here. Unless you count BMI.

The military is not gonna get involved unless these guys get out of hand.Lets hope they don't . The US police are well armed.

[UFO]

Originally Posted by SeanPatrick

Do you [and this question is for everyone else, too] think U.S. soldiers/sailors/airmen/Marines/coast guardsmen would open fire on the people? And by "people", I mean not a small group of teenagers burning and looting a particular city. I mean mass dissatisfaction with the government. I'm genuinely interested to know as many people's opinions on this as possible.


I live in an area with a lot of U.S. military personnel. I ask as many of them as I can this same question. I have only ever gotten one kind of answer.

I remember a youtube video from a few years ago - Texas or Arizona ranchers had a huge standoff about losing their land - They were armed to the teeth and in the video it was the government that backed down - Rightly so as it would have been a bloodbath.

[Yihang]

The scary thing is what happens when these two group meet. What doe's the government do?

You can't even arrest them because open carry is legal?

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Wotname

... for the sake of argument, let's say the creator did bestow such certain unalienable Rights and also that all men are created equal (as stated). It follows then that such rights apply to all men (people), not just the ones in the USA. It seems though, your courts don't apply these principles to non USA citizens.

Within our borders, the courts have ruled that the protections of the Constitution do indeed apply to everyone ... even non-citizens. AFAIK, that has been duly enforced. I would like to see evidence to the contrary.


Now, what happens outside of our borders is not something that I can say I am pleased with - and that is an understatement. Certain citizens of the U.S. are by no means innocent of acts up to and including downright war crimes. Some of them are prosecuted. A necessarily unknown number go unpunished. But that does not mean that I or any other particular U.S. citizen or the U.S. as a whole condone such acts.


It is my firm belief that the "average" U.S. citizen wants us out of everyone else's business as much as everyone else does. And my conversations with just about everyone confirms that. Ironically, the only President we've had in living memory who didn't get us into a new conflict is hated by what seems like most of the planet.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Yihang

The military is not gonna get involved unless these guys get out of hand.Lets hope they don't . The US police are well armed.

These days they are as well armed as the military. Which, on one hand troubles me. But on the other hand, when I see what they are facing ... I can't blame them.

[SeanPatrick]

Originally Posted by Yihang

The scary thing is what happens when these two group meet. What doe's the government do?

You can't even arrest them because open carry is legal?

Open carry is legal in some places, usually with restrictions and conditions. Two groups of armed people erupting into a riot against each other can and will be stopped because that is illegal and stupid and has nothing to do with rights whatsoever.

[Yihang]

Us asians protest in comfort. Switch out the ARs with some lawnchairs...pretty screwed if **** hits the fan...