U.S. to close..

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by AA3JY

Wow!! This comment is kinda cold...

Hey - better some old people die, than make freedom-loving people wear a cloth mask, amirite?

Seriously, it's often been raised, over the last several months, that instead of lockdowns and other measures aimed at the whole public, there should be focused measures to protect the most vulnerable - most obviously seniors and the chronically-ill, in long-term care, retirement homes, etc.

So here we are, several months later... and COVID-19 is still entering and ripping through these homes and hospitals. Has anyone seen any genuinely effective protection set up for these homes? Me neither.

It seems that some countries just can't manage spread with voluntary measures. There's just two settings there - exponential growth and mandated lockdown. It's like controlling engine speed by switching the fuel supply valve from full off to full on.

[motion30]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

So people who were going to die soon anyways die and that’s a surprise?
Nursing homes are where people send their old family members who they don’t want to deal with anymore to die. It’s like the glue factory, but for humans.

Yeah anybody over 50 ,their productive days are behind them. Maybe more expedient to ship them in boxcars to waiting camps where they can be put in gas Chambers

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Hey - better some old people die, than make freedom-loving people wear a cloth mask, amirite?

Yes
Our rights outweigh your dead.
Again, you think this virus is bad, take a trip down the unchecked government path.

However thankfully the mass majority this virus kills were beyond normal life expectancy, or had fatal underlying issues before they got sick.

Originally Posted by motion30

Yeah anybody over 50 ,their productive days are behind them. Maybe more expedient to ship them in boxcars to waiting camps where they can be put in gas Chambers

The average age for someone in a normal nursing home is a wee bit north of 50.

[motion30]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Yes
Our rights outweigh your dead. No
Again, you think this virus is bad, take a trip down the unchecked government path.

However thankfully the mass majority this virus kills were beyond normal life expectancy, or had fatal underlying issues before they got sick.






The average age for someone in a normal nursing home is a wee bit north of 50.

So at what age would it be acceptable to you to pack the old folks in boxcars take their valuables and send them to the gas chamber? You may 60 or 70 but I say why wait 50 is starting to get old

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Exponential growth curves are small - until they aren't....... it's hard to appreciate just how suddenly those tiny numbers can snowball into gigantic numbers...

I suggest to you that it is more than hard to appreciate this....for some people it is literally biologically impossible for them.

Once upon a time there was a story, some say containing much logic and mathematical allegory, where a famous deity, so as to demonstrate to a man his power and providence, turned a strait line into a curved line and then back into a straight line again.

Now, insofar as the people way back when didn't have mathematical formulae and instead peppered pre-existing stories (type-scene style) with "allegory in lieu of formula" no one can prove with certainty what the story was all about. But, for purposes here, I suggest that some people need the intervention of a deity to help them understand the subject to which you are speaking.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by motion30

So at what age would it be acceptable to you to pack the old folks in boxcars take their valuables and send them to the gas chamber? You may 60 or 70 but I say why wait 50 is starting to get old

I first retired, from the workforce (to cruise) at 42 y/o.
Returned to work at 52, then retired again, at 60.
I guess, the past dozen years, of my like, haven't had any value.

Speaking of which:
Q: What do you call a 70 year old with a bomb?
A: A Suicide Boomer

Who’d-a-thunk?
The more suicidal people there are, the less suicidal people there are.
Murder is the same as suicide, except the other person is doing it for you.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Who are "the people"? A bunch of peaceful protestors? A bunch of civilians going about their business? NO. That is not the scenario which was posed. The scenario posed was ARMED citizens seeking to overthrow a "tyrannical" government. Reference was made to the time this was done in 1776. Re-read the post you were responding to. You got sucked into a false equivalency between unarmed protesters and armed insurrectionists.

Sorry DH, but you've misread my response once again. I was NOT responding to any specific scenario as presented in those other previous posts. I was responding to the broader question as I quoted: "whether I thought the US military would act against its own people."

Whether you like it or not, all the groups you reference are Americans, hence "the people." State force is constantly used against internal groups. Whether the action is justified depends on the circumstances. And yes, states must retain this right to defend themselves. But I am quite sure King George III saw 1776 differently, and had full justification on his side. We all -- ALL OF US -- justify our actions in terms of righteousness. The angels (or god, or the correct legal interpretation, or self-evident truths...) are ALWAYS on our side.

This is why I am cautious when someone suggests Nation States would restrain themselves from the use of force, or that individual military or police members would refuse such an order. I HOPE they would -- and indeed we have heroic stories of those who did. But history is ripe with the more common occurrence of police or military simply following orders.

BTW, I do not suggest the USA is anywhere near this kind of political fork in the road. I was merely answering the broad question as posed, which is not the one you think I am referencing.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by motion30

So at what age would it be acceptable to you to pack the old folks in boxcars take their valuables and send them to the gas chamber? You may 60 or 70 but I say why wait 50 is starting to get old

I would say.. never?

This goes against every post I made, having government or mob rule able to make calls as who’s “too old” is the inverse of what I have been saying.

If someone tried to pack the older folks in my family into a box car, it wouldn’t work too well, at a certain age folks go more DILIGAF and they are all well armed.

Thing is, and this is my whole point, people need to make these decision for THEMSELVES, or if someone is mentally compromised the decision should ONLY come from the family, the gov has no say in these things. That being said, nursing homes are for the most part what they are, I just choose to not sugar coat it.

As far as the virus, older people need to make the call if they bunker down or go out and enjoy life for themselves.

All gov should do is say “here is what we found and what we recommend, thanks for the taxes” and that’s it.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

... We all -- ALL OF US -- justify our actions in terms of righteousness. The angels (or god, or the correct legal interpretation, or self-evident truths...) are ALWAYS on our side ...

Indeed. As Bob Dylan wrote:
"... But I learned to accept it
And accept it with pride
For you don't count the dead
When God's on your side ..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8IoLkoQ19E

[a64pilot]

Lord I love how you people twist things.
A comment was made that nursing’s homes are where people go to die, and you people start trying to suggest they were talking about the Nazi gas chambers.

What purpose do you guys think nursing homes serve? There is even a Brit comedy called “Waiting for God” I believe about people in nursing homes.

So far as Covid, it’s overwhelmingly the old and or infirm that succumb to it, like many or most diseases.

What I find interesting is there so many of you are so sure that wearing masks and “shutting down” even for only two weeks would end the Pandemic, I find it interesting that so many of you think that wearing a t shirt over your face does much at all.

I think it could do more harm than good, why? because many think that a mask will protect them so they go shopping etc, when they wouldn’t if they thought they had no protection.

Nothing is as simple as you guys want it to be.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

So people who were going to die soon anyways die and that’s a surprise?
Nursing homes are where people send their old family members who they don’t want to deal with anymore to die. It’s like the glue factory, but for humans.

Umm...NO!

The point was it's silly not to focus on the problem. Measures should focus on those most at risk and with this virus, once you eliminate the 60+ crowd, it's really a pretty harmless disease...so unlike the early responses which sent infected patients back to nursing homes, nursing homes should have been isolated pretty much immediately.

And, no arguments that it's a new virus and they didn't know any better don't hold up. Infecting a nursing home with any virus is obviously a stupid idea in every way shape and form.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Singularity

I submit that you've got to come down on one side or the other of the following assessments of what is causing economic contraction in the first place.

1) contraction caused most by innate economic behavior where people spend less during times of uncertainty, etc, etc, that results in contraction

2) contraction is caused by most ham-handed "lockdown" of business where said business are hamstrung, weakened, ripple effects contracting the economy.
[[Indeed ham-handed govt behavior in the first place, independent of business shutdowns leads to uncertainty, but and some point you've got to slice things]]

It hadn't previously occurred to me that folks do not understand that #1 is correct...instead they blame ~lockdowns for the contraction. If one does not conceptualize #1 on their cognitive balance, then they cannot understand that any measure that allows Covid to in any way linger in the community will just cause doubt-associated contraction (the principle driving force of contraction) to persist.

Insofar as "targeted measures" (e.g. protecting 85yo ppl) invariably will have some death spill over in the larger population, such measures ought to be understood to be, sort of, the worst of both worlds. Which indeed is what we're seeing in the US.

They aren't separate items where you must come down on one side or the other...In fact the ham handed approach certainly boosted the fear factor through the roof.

Of course, you undermine your argument by implying 2) was just a bit of weakening. A great many businesses have been directly shut down by the govt for months and others were effectively shut down by the govt making it incredibly difficult to operate. Even many of the "essential" business have been severely hurt. Unless you are producing hand sanitizer or some other outlying work that runs counter, the vast majority of business has been hammered hard by the govt response and then by the resulting fear that poor and politicized response caused.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

...
What I find interesting is there so many of you are so sure that wearing masks and “shutting down” even for only two weeks would end the Pandemic, I find it interesting that so many of you think that wearing a t shirt over your face does much at all...
... Nothing is as simple as you guys want it to be.

Indeed, it's not simple.
Masking? Brownian motion, anyone?

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Umm...NO!

The point was it's silly not to focus on the problem. Measures should focus on those most at risk and with this virus, once you eliminate the 60+ crowd, it's really a pretty harmless disease...so unlike the early responses which sent infected patients back to nursing homes, nursing homes should have been isolated pretty much immediately.

And, no arguments that it's a new virus and they didn't know any better don't hold up. Infecting a nursing home with any virus is obviously a stupid idea in every way shape and form.

Well per the nursing home, I’m sticking with human glue factory

But per old people, that was the very corrupt governor of NY who forced sick people into nursing homes, sending many older people to a earlier than needed grave, again this is why folks should encourage government to just sit on their hands.

If it was left to real people, you would NEVER OK some confirmed Covid positive person moving in with your grandma, no one, other than gov, would think that was a bright idea.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Lord I love how you people twist things.
A comment was made that nursing’s homes are where people go to die, and you people start trying to suggest they were talking about the Nazi gas chambers.

What purpose do you guys think nursing homes serve? There is even a Brit comedy called “Waiting for God” I believe about people in nursing homes.

Seniors move into seniors' homes to 'downsize', to have things a bit easier (eg a dining room), and for the company of other seniors. People move into nursing homes or long-term care because they need the medical support. Both groups go to those places to have a better life. They don't 'go there to die'. Death will find us all no matter where we go.

What I find interesting is there so many of you are so sure that wearing masks and “shutting down” even for only two weeks would end the Pandemic...

Who is saying that? Call'em out or link to them. I have not seen that.

I think it could do more harm than good, why? because many think that a mask will protect them so they go shopping etc, when they wouldn’t if they thought they had no protection.

Oh ffs. It's been posted several times a day for the last several months in all the COVID threads: cloth masks aren't for protecting the wearer. People have to go out for supplies and groceries, medical appointments, work; masks reduce the amount of virus spread around in shared spaces.

Nothing is as simple as you guys want it to be.

I think you just cornered the market on oversimplification.