U.S. to close..

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Its a shame so many of those adults are so dumb, brainwashed and delusional.

The imagery of mass gatherings and parties taking place over there with not a jot of thought of ramifications is appalling

USA #1 in the covid race to the bottom.

So I get sick, >99% maybe feel sick and get over it, or not even feel sick and get over it.

In the US we are very protective of our freedoms, we are a nation born from revolution from tyranny, thinking we are going to give up their freedoms at home, not going to happen, lets call it cultural differences

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Or RECOMMEND the very old and very sick bunker down, like you would during the flu season, or when any other virus is making the rounds.

And for everyone else, just get on with life, presume you’re going to get and get over it like you would a bad flu.

Of course if you are concerned you can wear whatever you want, or stay home, or whatever you choose is best for you

Hubris would be thinking you know what’s best for others better than they do.

You continue to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding as to how the Covid-19 virus lives and spreads. Understanding what the science has taught us, and acting on this information, is not hubris. It is basic common sense.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You continue to demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding as to how the Covid-19 virus lives and spreads. Understanding what the science has taught us, and acting on this information, is not hubris. It is basic common sense.

You seem very intellectual, you should act on that information.

Just don’t try to force your opinion on me, that’s all I ask

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Just don’t try to force your opinion on me, that’s all I ask

Yet that is exactly what you are doing to the detriment of the rest of the planet with your "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_alright,_Jack

[clockwork orange]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Well depending on your health it might not affect you, like all correct answers “depends”

What I really don’t get is, what do you want??

This virus has been around since late 2019, all the data is out there, go to CDC, go research and figure out what works BEST FOR YOU, and do it.
Freedom is great in that you can make that choice for yourself, without requiring the reaffirmation from some pointless politician or a so so gov payroll doctor.

The only thing worse than making health decisions based on some guy on the internets opinion, is going off a glorified DMV workers opinion.

Read the raw data, consult the odds with your calculator, inject a little common sense, make YOUR move.

Any thoughts on how this affects anyone other than yourself? Would you ever consider doing something for the greater good? I doubt it. The widespread selfishness in this country is why we as a country are doing so poorly. Its easy to blame the politicians but those that are asking for the public o do very simple things like mask wearing, simple things that any reasonable person should be able to get on board with for the greater good but they get met with resistance by self absorbed ( insert your own expletive) who wont even do that. These same people bitch about lockdowns when they are the cause of them. At this point 9 months into this if everyone had just followed the simple steps laid out by the medical professionals (who actually do know better than the rest of us) we would not be needing to close down. We have all been given the opportunity to wear masks, social distance and stay away from public gatherings etc voluntarily but the selfish ones that would not have caused the closings more than the politicians. I live in Minnesota and we have just closed bars resturants and gyms etc for the next month but the morons let churches stay open so they can keep holding their super spreader events so it won't work unfortunately.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yet that is exactly what you are doing to the detriment of the rest of the planet with your "I'm alright Jack" attitude.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_alright,_Jack

Yes, I am not responsible for you, you are responsible for you.

If you think cotton masks and staying 6’ apart works, do that, I’m not exactly going to be running up to you to pull your mask down, for one that has always been a crime, for two I have no interest in doing that.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You seem to have a belief, bordering on the religious, that collective altruistic action to achieve a greater good is wrong. Hey, we all read Ayn Rand, but most of us got past it.

I just think most times things went “collective” or for the “greater good” bad things tend to happen.

Again, if you find others to join your collective that’s cool, just don’t try to force me into it.

I’ll just be over here doing me, I’m not trying to jump into your collective group like mission impossible to run up and cough on everyone lol, I don’t think anyone is.

Why is it “collective” “greater good” people always lose their **** when others don’t want to join their collective?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Infected people spread the virus to other people. Period (... give or take some mink, or maybe the household kitty). If you can stop or reduce the interactions that transfer the virus, you reduce the spread. Is this in doubt?

There's no magic involved. If measures aren't producing reductions, it's because the measures are insufficient, or because people aren't following them. It's really "hard to say" whether something worked or not if no-one's yet done the analysis, which is admittedly difficult if we lack sufficient data about interactions.

No, you can't say "[i]f measures aren't producing reductions, it's because the measures are insufficient, or because people aren't following them". Only if the only factor involved is measures. In fact the phenomenon is much more complex. Why are the measures sufficient in Finland but grossly inadequate in Lithuania? The exact same measures?

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

No sh!t.

You can press pause if the businesses and their workers can be supported over the required period of restriction.

That's an unrealistic "if". Not anywhere in the world, are businesses being supported in full, and in most places they are not supported at all. There simply isn't enough money.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Plus, I seem to have greater faith in the resilience and entrepreneurship of most business people than you do. If there's people with an idea and initiative, and consumers with discretionary income, and some capital, they always find each other.

Maybe because I'm actually in business, I have an idea about how this really works. It takes years (in most cases) to create, what can be destroyed in a few months. Sure, eventually businesses get started up. But when people are out of work, they don't spend money. When people don't spend money, there is no demand to fulfill with a startup business. You print a bunch of money and cause inflation, interest rates spike up and businesses can't borrow money for capital goods. It's completely interconnected and interdependent, and knock the legs out of one part of it, and the whole thing falls apart. It's a vicious cycle, which is how economic downturns happen, and why it often takes years to recover from them.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm starting to get the idea that you're opposed to lockdowns. Now, you've had COVID, and know people who had it. You claim to be concerned about it, but you have only negative things to say about mitigation efforts, except for the idea that we should all turn into Scandinavians.

You didn't read what I wrote closely. I admit that in lacking a simple message, it is unlike most of what you'll read about it, and will be simply inscrutable to many people.

Maybe a simple summary would help. In my opinion:

1. The pandemic is a really serious global crisis and requires extraordinary measures.

2. We've had pandemics before, but this one is in many ways unprecedented so we don't really have an applicable playbook to work from.

3. Politicization of the pandemic is extremly harmful, destroying nuanced thinking about it (what is desperately needed), and pushing towards one or another very bad set of policies, not to mention a destruction of cooperation, which is also desperately needed. A lot of what I've written is simply pushing back against this or that oversimplified, politicized approach to pandemic measures -- just trying to make people think more.

4. Because of our lack of much data, we don't really know the right combination of measures to take in any situation. Therefore mistakes are inevitable. A healthy political atmosphere is crucial to enable healthy self-criticism and necessary course corrections.

5. The various measures being used have costs and consequences. We can't employ them without using best efforts to weigh those costs and be as sure as we can that they are rational. The cure can EASILY be worse than the disease. In weighing costs and consequences, it cannot be ignored that economic costs are human costs as well. It may very well be better to refrain from some measure even if it saves some number of life-years but causes great harm, even short of death, to millions of working poor. It is immensely destructive to fanatically focus on the pandemic death toll, heedless of other costs and effects.

6. As to lockdown (i.e. stay at home orders and mass closing of businesses) -- I've repeatedly said I don't know whether they are worthwhile or not. And I've said that there are probably some circumstances in some countries where they are needed. I am skeptical of them as a go-to measure, particularly since politicians in politically dysfunctional states will be tempted to employ them just because they look "bold", and because if they employ the "toughest" possible measures then it is less likely they will be criticized later. And to hell with the generation of working poor who are thrown under the bus thereby. So the most sensible sounding to me policy on lockdowns if in fact what WHO says: "Only as a last resort". I don't know for sure, but that sounds right to me. We shall see.

7. Don't ignore SUSTAINABILITY of different measures. If you do something unsustainable, what happens when you come out of it?

8. Keeping health care systems from being overwhelmed was the original purpose of the pandemic measures, and if an outbreak gets bad enough to threaten that, then it may be that all bets are off. This is really dangerous and may cause entirely disproportionate casualties. Short of this kind of wave of infections, nuanced sets of measures feel right to me, ones which sensitively balance all the different costs and consequences, including not only reducing infections and deaths, but economic consequences, social health of society (people's interation with each other, access to recreation, work, etc.), and civil liberties.

9. We must consider the science, whatever it is -- and if there isn't enough, we urgently need to make more -- about the real EFFECTIVENESS of different measures. Pay attention to the criticism of different measures laid by different Nordic health authorities -- saying that this or that measure is not science-based. For example, it has been said that closing borders, once there is any community spread in your country, is scientific nonsense -- very harmful, and bringing nothing, when the real vector of spread is internal travel. They may or may not be right, but we have to ask the questions. Don't let the politicians sell us stuff they just make up. Or do it just because everybody is doing it, and the politicians are afraid to be blamed if they do less than what's being done in the next country.

10. Every policy (on any subject) requires tradeoffs -- that is in the nature of policymaking.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

We have approx 6 months to slog through before vaccine uptake becomes significant. We have the task of keeping the COVID spread low enough to maintain viable healthcare systems and low numbers of death and disability. The only tools right now seem to be restrictions (up to and including lockdowns), and supports for people and businesses most harmed. If these are unacceptable to you, please provide alternative ideas. If you think that 'we' should simply grit our teeth, impose no serious restrictions and bear the COVID toll (and by 'we', we're referring to the working poor who are deemed cannonfodder essential workers, and healthcare workers who get to enjoy 6 more months of 12 hr shifts, overtime, 6 PPE changes an hour, and triaging), please say so. Say the words.

This is epically unfair. I never claimed to have all the answers. And the right approach in one country at one time is not necessarily the right approach in some other.

Certainly, as I've said, we've got to do everything necessary to keep health care systems from being overwhelmed, including if necessary lockdown, if there is no other way. I guess that more intelligent and targetted measures short of lockdown, will work in most places under most circumstances.

The Nordic set of measures seems smartest of all to me, and seem to be working, at least here, at least SO FAR. But I emphasize SEEM. And also SO FAR. We shall see.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by clockwork orange

Any thoughts on how this affects anyone other than yourself? Would you ever consider doing something for the greater good? I doubt it. The widespread selfishness in this country is why we as a country are doing so poorly. Its easy to blame the politicians but those that are asking for the public o do very simple things like mask wearing, simple things that any reasonable person should be able to get on board with for the greater good but they get met with resistance by self absorbed ( insert your own expletive) who wont even do that. These same people bitch about lockdowns when they are the cause of them. At this point 9 months into this if everyone had just followed the simple steps laid out by the medical professionals (who actually do know better than the rest of us) we would not be needing to close down. We have all been given the opportunity to wear masks, social distance and stay away from public gatherings etc voluntarily but the selfish ones that would not have caused the closings more than the politicians. I live in Minnesota and we have just closed bars resturants and gyms etc for the next month but the morons let churches stay open so they can keep holding their super spreader events so it won't work unfortunately.

I have volunteered in many hazardous situations to help others.

Also how am I selfish? Very odd.
I’m not trying to force MY will onto OTHERS
However some want to force THEIR WILL onto me.

...but those who just want to be left alone, who are not trying to run other lives or business, are selfish?

I don’t claim to be a “intellectual” but that doesn’t seem to hold water

Do you really think the person on TV knows better what’s best for YOU, than you do? I’d be careful with that.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Why is it “collective” “greater good” people always lose their **** when others don’t want to join their collective?

Because you're treating society (aka the collective) like membership is optional. In when it's giving you good things; out when it bugs you.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

I don’t really have a “position”.
Also
“ Dr. Fauci claimed that AIDS might be transmissible by “routine close contact.” (May 5, 1983, issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association). (Michael Fumento, The Myth of Heterosexual AIDS, p. 237).”
Fauci and the real doomer doc Ferguson, who has a documented history always wrongly saying the sky is falling, I’d not recommend using people like that as your voice of reason and more than rush

In a May 1983 JAMA Editorial, accompanying several scientific papers on AIDS in homosexuals and in children, Dr. Fauci said:
“... The finding of [AIDS in infants and children who are household contacts of patients with AIDS or persons with risks for AIDS*] has enormous implications with regard to ultimate transmissibility of this syndrome,” Fauci says. “If routine close contact can spread the disease, AIDS takes on an entirely new dimension”

“Given the fact that incubation period for adults is believed to be longer than one year, the full impact of the syndrome among sexual contacts and recipients of potentially infective transfusions is uncertain at present. If we add to this the possibility that nonsexual, non-blood-borne transmission is possible, the scope of the syndrome may be enormous.”

* That was a finding, in one of the aforementioned scientific papers.

Nevertheless, in January 1984 Dr.Fauci said, in another peer reviewed journal, the Annals of Internal Medicine: "There is no evidence that the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome can be transmitted by routine house-hold or social contact."

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Because you're treating society (aka the collective) like membership is optional. In when it's giving you good things; out when it bugs you.

Not remotely.

Heck Im waaay over taxed, my invoice vs bill of goods is far out of spec, I’m the one on here saying not to force your will onto others, respect others rights.

I draw a hard line when it comes to my 10 basic rights and individual liberty, as do many people.

Again, if that cotton mask, or lexan face shield thing and 6’ work, go for it.
Just let the rest of us all die from the covid and you will have your “collective” utopia of “intellectuals” and “experts” Well until one of you decided he knows what’s best for the rest and you go down that path.

You should look at all the governments who were into “collectives” and “greater goods” cross reference with atrocities genocides etc. careful the company your ideas keep

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

You seem very intellectual, you should act on that information.

Just don’t try to force your opinion on me, that’s all I ask

If your choice only affected you, then I wouldn't care what you do. But your choices affect more than just you. This is what you seem to fail to grasp.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, you can't say "[i]f measures aren't producing reductions, it's because the measures are insufficient, or because people aren't following them". Only if the only factor involved is measures. In fact the phenomenon is much more complex. Why are the measures sufficient in Finland but grossly inadequate in Lithuania? The exact same measures?

Well, let me try for safer ground: If COVID spread is trending up, we know there's too many unsafe human interactions happening that involve contagious people. How else does it spread? It's not that much of a stretch to say that where there's exponential spread, the problem interactions haven't been restricted enough, or people aren't complying. I don't think there's that much randomness about it, just gaps in our understanding about what works best.

You didn't read what I wrote closely. I admit that in lacking a simple message, it is unlike most of what you'll read about it, and will be simply inscrutable to many people.

Maybe a simple summary would help...

It did. Appreciated. And I think that most of us truly get your point about the potential downsides and risks of lockdowns.

Certainly, as I've said, we've got to do everything necessary to keep health care systems from being overwhelmed, including if necessary lockdown, if there is no other way. I guess that more intelligent and targetted measures short of lockdown, will work in most places under most circumstances.

I hope you're right. Moreover, I believe we have about another 6 months of "this", til the vaccine is rolled out in big numbers. This will either encourage people to stay the course to get to that point, or (wrongly) think that screw it, in six months we're vaccinated so measures don't matter much now.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If your choice only affected you, then I wouldn't care what you do. But your choices affect more than just you. This is what you seem to fail to grasp.

If your social distancing and masks work, what I do shouldn’t have any bearing on you, if you believe and practice what you preach.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

If your social distancing and masks work, what I do shouldn’t have any bearing on you, if you believe and practice what you preach.

When you move to a desert island, and live all by yourself, then you can do as you choose. Until then, you live in a society where your actions affect others.

So you have a choice. Move, or learn to live collectively with others.