U.S. to close..

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Have they? Can you link a source to prove it? We have been wearing masks for 7 months, have the rates dropped?

I wear my mask and try to control personal distance. But so far i have not seen numbers to support that is doing anything.

We have to face it. Corvid 19 isnt going away any more than the Flu has and we have a vaccine for the Flu.

And i dont want to hear any stories of govt not doing enough. If you have gone out in public don't blame your lack of personal responsibility on others!

Real masks would have been extremely helpful. However, we decided not to make these in the USA anymore and not to keep any on hand for a pandemic.

I wear n95 masks from 3m because I bought a case for boat work before the pandemic. My household (only 2 people) continues to wear these. I attribute being careful about social distancing, not going out unnecessarily, wearing glasses and n95 masks at all times when out of the house with our not getting sick.

We even stopped any and all consumption of foods that could be contaminated by sick people making it and wash everything we buy or let it sit a couple weeks before using it or touching it. I treat it like epoxy.

If the country was actually prepared with real 3m n95s and followed the discipline it takes to not catch the virus it would be gone too.

But the masks everyone wear help some. Just not as much as they should.

I wouldn’t leave the house AT ALL with the masks I see everyone wearing. I prefer 2-way protection of the n95. I’m sure those other cloth masks and neck gators do help to an extent (they sure stop some of the larger particles, but probably not all aerosols). Still better than nothing.

[Captain Bill]

Dockhead, I'm not going to repost everything we have said so far, But I disagree with you on pretty much all of your points. I would note that I know a person who was seriously injured by an improperly worn seat belt in a crash, but that does not mean I don't wear a seat belt. While I don't know anyone personally that has been injured by a defective airbag, I know that it has happened but that doesn't mean that I won't ride in a car with airbags. Back to masks, there is a well documented case where two hair stylists with active covid continued to work, but wearing masks. They traced 134 people that they had serviced while they were active had zero cases among that group. Masks work if worn properly.



I pointed out that the public health measures were easy to implement. Easy is relative. But since basically no public health measures were implements we'll actually never know if they were easy or not. The US actually had a pandemic plan, but since it was made under the previous administration it was summarily ignored. So apparently no plan was better.



Lastly my observation about the political leanings of everyone I know that has contracted the disease is just that, an observation. It may be that I just know a lot of people of that political persuasion.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Here is some bloody good news:


https://www.usnews.com/news/health-n...s-90-effective


This is fantastic. Light at the end of the tunnel at last!!!

A vaccine is only effective if a large enough portion of the population take it. Personally I know a lot of people who will not take it, some are Dr’s. No one really wants to take something that has been rushed out and not properly tested. You can’t even get people to agree to wearing a mask and now you want them all to take a vaccine....Good Luck!

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

... My comment stands I PERSONALLY know no one who has had the virus ....
... I wear my mask and try to control personal distance. But so far i have not seen numbers to support that is doing anything ...

However, were your personal knowledge/experience actually evidentiary (reflective of reality), we wouldn't have had any Covid-related deaths.

[bletso]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

All these people reported getting the virus and so far I personally know - 0

And I know 5, two died.

[Mike OReilly]

From the early days of this pandemic I speculated about what would be the deciding factors in how different societies and regions respond. I wondered, and continue to wonder, if a key factor is levels of societal trust and social cohesion.

In societies where there are high levels of social cohesion, either through a strong sense of the common good (Ex: Nordic countries, NZ, and to a lesser extent, Canada and Oz), or through coercion (Ex: China), we tend to see more effective responses to the pandemic. In societies that are more fractured (Ex: USA, UK, France), or simply failing (Ex: Russia, Brazil), we see them struggling.

[Franziska]

That, is not correct.

A vaccine is actually effective on the person who has been vaccinated.
This specific one from Biontech, a German company (Pfizer is actually not the main developer, they are more producer & distributors) is effective one week after the second shot. There are 3 weeks between the shots.
It's over 90% effective and may even reduce the symptoms which occur in the remaining 10% of cases.

Of course the vaccine itself can only protect those directly who got vaccinated.

All other who decide not to take it rely on the principles of herd immunity.
In this case of herd immunity which will be achieved if over 65% of the population either are vaccinated or have got antibodies from an actual infection.

In my personal view, some might think different, getting vaccinated is similar to wearing marks and keeping your distance. It's a sign of care for others (each vaccinated person is one person less risk of infection for unvaccinated people).
With the added benefit that in this case that it also helps you more directly personally.

Btw. A mask is not a political statement, it's a mask, and, it protects primarily others. This holds even more true now that the election is over.

Not wearing masks is simply showing that you are not caring about fellow human beings. Besides being a stupid thing to do that is.

Originally Posted by aqfishing

A vaccine is only effective if a large enough portion of the population take it. Personally I know a lot of people who will not take it, some are Dr’s. No one really wants to take something that has been rushed out and not properly tested. You can’t even get people to agree to wearing a mask and now you want them all to take a vaccine....Good Luck!

[Lake-Effect]

We in the western countries have ONE immediate task in front of us: to act now to reduce the infection rate enough that our countries can reasonably open up enough in December to have a decent Christmas (Chanukah/Kwanzaa/Festivus/Winter Solstice/whatever) this year.

Our families need this, retailers all need this, hospitality needs this, the economies need this. We're already seeing some signs; we know some folks who put up their Christmas trees this weekend.

Even if a permissive December leads to a January surge, it's still likely worth the risk... IF we can see some strong compliance and dropping numbers in November, and the mass acceptance of reasonable precautions that will stick with us through a December reopening.

If we can all act sensibly now, we won't have to disappoint DH with more lockdowns. I think that's reason enough.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Dockhead, I'm not going to repost everything we have said so far, But I disagree with you on pretty much all of your points. I would note that I know a person who was seriously injured by an improperly worn seat belt in a crash, but that does not mean I don't wear a seat belt. While I don't know anyone personally that has been injured by a defective airbag, I know that it has happened but that doesn't mean that I won't ride in a car with airbags. Back to masks, there is a well documented case where two hair stylists with active covid continued to work, but wearing masks. They traced 134 people that they had serviced while they were active had zero cases among that group. Masks work if worn properly.

That's an anecdote. There have been different actual scientific studies, and the results don't all agree with each other.


I don't think we really disagree -- I wear masks myself, and I think it's good policy to require masks. But just we have no right to be arrogantly sure about their efficacy -- science has not settled that.

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

. . . I pointed out that the public health measures were easy to implement. Easy is relative. But since basically no public health measures were implements we'll actually never know if they were easy or not. The US actually had a pandemic plan, but since it was made under the previous administration it was summarily ignored. So apparently no plan was better.

Is it that simple? It is actually not.

There is a lot of politicized writing claiming that, e.g. https://eu.jsonline.com/in-depth/new...ne/3587922001/

and I certainly agree that the executive branch did absolutely horrible optics and communication, which certainly didn't help anything. But the real story is far more complex. For example, this, when fact checked: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-f...-idUSKBN21C32M. More here: https://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/fa...pandemic-work/

So it is deeply wrong to say -- "It's all their fault -- if only we'd just done this and that -- simple, right? -- we'd be OK!" This is a politicized distortion. If it were like that, then why does France, with great leadership and world-beating health care system, have an even worse outcome than we do?

Because it's NOT after all so simple.

There are some obvious failures in our pandemic response. But there were obvious failures in most country's pandemic response. It is really hard to say what it would have taken, to get to a better outcome.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

From the early days of this pandemic I speculated about what would be the deciding factors in how different societies and regions respond. I wondered, and continue to wonder, if a key factor is levels of societal trust and social cohesion.

In societies where there are high levels of social cohesion, either through a strong sense of the common good (Ex: Nordic countries, NZ, and to a lesser extent, Canada and Oz), or through coercion (Ex: China), we tend to see more effective responses to the pandemic. In societies that are more fractured (Ex: USA, UK, France), or simply failing (Ex: Russia, Brazil), we see them struggling.

Sounds plausible -- certainly you can see the huge positive signs of social trust in Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Norway -- people are calm, take everything seriously, all do their part, and leave the health authorities alone without political hysteria. It's a much healthier atmosphere. Not only are health outcomes good, but there is much less collateral damage as people experience much less anxiety and there is much less disruption of the rest of life. It's day and night compared to what's going on in the U.S.

But I'm not sure I agree about France, or Russia for that matter. Both countries have their problems, but the atmosphere in these countries is more like it is in the Nordic countries, than it is like the atmosphere in the U.S. or U.K.

In Russia there is not much trust in the government in general, but the pandemic response is bloody well organized despite the generally poor level of the health care system, and there is not not much politicization of the pandemic, not any hysteria. In Russia there is a plan for everything, and high level of organization for emergency situations, including pandemics. The Russians for example rolled out an online system of passes during their lockdown, the likes of which I haven't seen anywhere else -- people were confined to their homes but not all that strictly -- they have a flexible right to do all kinds of things subject to getting a pass which you show on your smartphone, and tracking of where you have been, greatly facilitating contact tracing, which was also rolled out in Russia faster than anywhere else in Europe.

And the outcome in Russia is looking quite good at this moment:



All this without any social trust, but with well organized government.

So your theory sounds good on the surface, but I'm not sure it stands up to the facts.


P.S.: Description of the Russian systems as of 13 May: https://digital.freshfields.com/post...a-is-different Very advanced. We don't have systems at this level even now, half a year later

[AiniA]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I dont know you at all. My comment stands I PERSONALLY know no one who has had the virus.

And that means what actually?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...And the outcome in Russia is looking quite good at this moment:

All this without any social trust, but with well organized government.

So your theory sounds good on the surface, but I'm not sure it stands up to the facts.

Well, those were just examples to illustrate the point. Perhaps they are the wrong examples . I certainly don't know Europe as well as you. Maybe Russia is a hybrid between coercive and trusting.

Point is, societies that act collectively, either willingly through trust, or unwillingly through controls, seem to be doing better than societies that have a more laissez-faire approach. It points to something deeper than just 'wearing masks' or 'not wearing masks.'

[Franziska]

Actually, the countries which fare on average much better, are those with a government which does follow the scientific approach.

Mrs. Merkel btw. happens even to be a scientist herself. She understands also what scientists from other fields of expertise than her own (she is a physicist) explain to her.
A while ago she gave a great example by explaining what an exponential development of cases actually means. Little math lesson by Frau Bundeskanzlerin.
She was right and, unfortunately it's worse than what she projected. At the moment of her projection some folks laught about it.
Very few do now.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by Franziska

That, is not correct.

A vaccine is actually effective on the person who has been vaccinated.
This specific one from Biontech, a German company (Pfizer is actually not the main developer, they are more producer & distributors) is effective one week after the second shot. There are 3 weeks between the shots.
It's over 90% effective and may even reduce the symptoms which occur in the remaining 10% of cases.

Of course the vaccine itself can only protect those directly who got vaccinated.

All other who decide not to take it rely on the principles of herd immunity.
In this case of herd immunity which will be achieved if over 65% of the population either are vaccinated or have got antibodies from an actual infection.

In my personal view, some might think different, getting vaccinated is similar to wearing marks and keeping your distance. It's a sign of care for others (each vaccinated person is one person less risk of infection for unvaccinated people).
With the added benefit that in this case that it also helps you more directly personally.

Btw. A mask is not a political statement, it's a mask, and, it protects primarily others. This holds even more true now that the election is over.

Not wearing masks is simply showing that you are not caring about fellow human beings. Besides being a stupid thing to do that is.

Please don’t attack me. I never said I would not take it. I also never said I don’t wear a mask, in fact I do! I was just stating that the vaccine is only going to work (to stop the spread I meant, not on those who take it!) if enough people take it. I will probably take it as I want to travel a lot.

I was merely pointing out a societal issue!

There is a large anti vac movement out there.

I wear a mask, avoid crowded public places and sanitise often, not because I am scared of the virus, I am low risk, but I do not want to pass it on to someone who may die from it!

[Franziska]

I did not mean to attack you, I was merely pointing out that a vaccine works for everyone who takes it, and for people around as well, but herd immunity is far.

All good.

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Please don’t attack me. I never said I would not take it. I also never said I don’t wear a mask, in fact I do! I was just stating that the vaccine is only going to work (to stop the spread I meant, not on those who take it!) if enough people take it. I will probably take it as I want to travel a lot.

I was merely pointing out a societal issue!

There is a large anti vac movement out there.

I wear a mask, avoid crowded public places and sanitise often, not because I am scared of the virus, I am low risk, but I do not want to pass it on to someone who may die from it!