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[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Exile

Only a partisan would parrot the memo that the US is awash in voter fraud, just like the opposing partisan would recite the meme that efforts to require some sort of ID prior to voting is tantamount to voter suppression. Both sides are distorting the truth ...

Indeed.

Despite the legal and political battles over voter ID laws, they don’t really seem to do much of anything. [1]

Supporters of strict voter ID laws argue that they’re necessary to stop voter fraud, particularly voter impersonation, which is extremely rare in the US. [2]
But critics argue that the laws, by restricting voting, make it harder for minority voters in particular to cast a ballot.

A new study [1] suggests that the laws, which require certain IDs to vote, don’t decrease voter turnout, including that of minority voters. Nor do they have a detectable effect on voter fraud — which is extremely rare in the US, anyway. [2]
The authors, of the new study [1], don’t view their findings as a go-ahead for passing more voter ID laws. Citing the laws’ apparent ineffectiveness against voter fraud, they argue the opposite:
“This result weakens the case for adopting such laws in the first place.”
The researchers caution that their results “should be interpreted with caution” and that they “do not see our results as the last word on this matter — quite the opposite.”

Loyola Law School professor, Justin Levitt, studied [2] voter impersonation. He found 35 total credible accusations between 2000 and 2014, constituting a few hundred ballots at most. During this 15-year period, more than 800 million ballots were cast in national general elections and hundreds of millions more were cast in primary, municipal, special, and other elections.

[1] “Strict ID Laws Don’t Stop Voters: Evidence from a U.S. Nationwide Panel, 2008–2018" ~ by Enrico Cantoni & Vincent Pons
"U.S. states increasingly require identification to vote – an ostensive attempt to deter fraud that prompts complaints of selective disenfranchisement. Using a difference-in-differences design on a 1.6-billion-observations panel dataset, 2008–2018, we find that the laws have no negative effect on registration or turnout, overall or for any group defined by race, gender, age, or party affiliation. These results hold through a large number of specifications and cannot be attributed to voters’ reaction against the laws, measured by campaign contributions and self-reported political engagement. However, the likelihood that non-white voters were contacted by a campaign increases by 5.4 percentage points, suggesting that parties’ mobilization might have offset modest effects of the laws on the participation of ethnic minorities. Finally, strict ID requirements have no effect on fraud – actual or perceived. Overall, our findings suggest that efforts to improve elections may be better directed at other reforms ..."
➥ https://www.nber.org/papers/w25522

[2]“About Voter Fraud: ~ by Justin Levitt
“... There have been a handful of substantiated cases of individual ineligible voters attempting to defraud the election system. But by any measure, voter fraud is extraordinarily rare.In part, this is because fraud by individual voters is a singularly foolish and ineffective way to attempt to win an election. Each act of voter fraud in connection with a federal election risks five years in prison and a $10,000 fine, in addition to any state penalties.18 In return, it yields at most one incremental vote. That single extra vote is simply not worth the price.Instead, much evidence that purports to reveal voter fraud can be traced to causes far more logical than fraud by voters. Below, this paper reviews the more common ways in which more benign errors or inconsistencies may be mistaken for voter fraud ...”
➥ https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/...er%20Fraud.pdf



A 2012 analysis found that as many as 758,000 registered voters in Pennsylvania didn’t have a photo ID, issued by the state’s Transportation Department — suggesting that up to 9.2 percent of Pennsylvania voters may have been disenfranchised, by a strict photo ID law.

“9.2 Percent of Pennsylvania Voters Lack Valid ID” ~ by David Weigel
➥ https://slate.com/news-and-politics/...-valid-id.html


In 2014, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) conducted a review on voter ID laws. Among the 10 studies it looked at, the results were mixed — five found no significant effect on turnout, one found increased turnout, and four found decreased turnout (between 1 and 4 percentage points). The GAO’s own study, looking at the effects of voter ID in Kansas and Tennessee, indicated that the laws may have decreased turnout by a few percentage points, with larger effects among younger, black, and newer potential voters.

“Issues Related to State Voter Identification Laws” ~ GAO
➥ https://www.gao.gov/assets/670/665966.pdf

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...But if you must label me, call me a communist-libertarian .

Careful or you might start sounding like an original colonial American (which might cause some gray matter to hit computer screens).

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed.

Despite the legal and political battles over voter ID laws, they don’t really seem to do much of anything. [1]

Supporters of strict voter ID laws argue that they’re necessary to stop voter fraud, particularly voter impersonation, which is extremely rare in the US. [2]
But critics argue that the laws, by restricting voting, make it harder for minority voters in particular to cast a ballot.

Here's a summary of the arguments against the current efforts to impose voter ID restrictions. It's from the ACLU, who has a dog in the fight, so have some salt handy.

They call out the potential restrictive effects of the proposed laws:

• hard to get - money, time, inconvenience, too few locations, timing games (not enough time to get ID before the next election)
• games around what's acceptable ID - eg concealed-carry ID is ok, but not a student card, public-assistance ID, state government employee ID
• discrimination in enforcement: who gets asked to show ID

At the end of the day, when a vote ID card is proposed unilaterally by a governing party, that most burdens the people who didn't support that party, and there's zero evidence that there's an actual problem to be solved by this ID... it's hard to see this as anything other than a partisan move to influence voting.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

“Free speech
Right to bear arms
Free travel”

This is a corrupt view of freedom

The most valuable freedom long fought in blood for millennia In Europe was the right to self determination, ie to vote. ( often achieved via a tortuous route )

The US has no real history of sustained political violence , Europe has 1000s of years of blood as it’s peoples excerted it’s will to self determination ( a process that isn’t over yet, in some parts of Europe )

Bearing arms isnt a “freedom “ , its a caricature of one

Freedom is the right to access education , be able to access medical care , put a house over your head , earn a living wage , and vote out a politician you don’t like ( the US seems to be struggling with that particular “ freedom “ right now )

These are “ freedoms “ these are “ rights “ countless generations of Europeans and elsewhere have fought and died for.

For one that’s free **** not freedom, and government run “public” education has become quite the joke.
Buying you insurance or a house is also a product that ANYONE can buy, even non citizens.

With the election, we have had quite a few 120-170 year olds vote, tons of “glitches” where one side won than another side, so it’s just a fact that there are shenanigans, we shall see by December.

OVERALL though; whatever, I don’t think you even get to the point that you’re on the ticket for the race unless you’re vetted and down with the system.

Which again is why the government doesn’t seem 1/10th as worries about whom ever voting as they are about someone being able to buy a gun, actually speak their mind uncensored, why no one is really taught their rights beyond rote in school, let alone about the application of jury nullification, why we demonize having local militia but all but loved the Boy Scouts and national guard, and why it’s getting harder and harder or simply travel across the country unchecked.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Nah, only a child can be a true libertarian.

True! And only a child can be a true leftist (cf Winston Churchill's famous dictum).

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'm just so far left I can see my right butt cheek. But if you must label me, call me a communist-libertarian .

I'm not sure whether you are joking, but this is actually a thing.

Are you familiar with the works of Abdulla Öcalan? Murray Bookchin, and indeed, Kropotkin, are also relevant.

Pretty much what I would vote for, if it were a choice (which in our idiotic two-dimensional politics, is definitely not).

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Further to this, I looked up the election ID laws for NY. They're pretty thorough, with lots of checks and a trail that can be investigated. They're very close to the laws we use in Canada, and we're not awash in vote fraud.

People pointing to lack of "voter ID" are apparently ignorant of the above laws and procedures, and, deliberately or not, aiding and defending the ongoing GOP efforts to restrict and otherwise mess with voting rights. Some claim that fraud is possible if there isn't a "card", but then they apparently can't imagine what a 14 yr old could do with Photoshop and a colour printer.

These same people generally rail against unwarranted government intrusion and involvement... but are advocating for these extra "ID" regimes because of a hyped hypothetical? Oooh, but it could happen! That's a blueprint for fraud!

It's curious that SS our rights absolutist is willing to storm the ramparts over wearing a cloth mask, but seems to be a willing supporter of the efforts to restrict or limit the right to vote of some Americans.

No.

When I voted last time, I told my name to a lady who didn’t look a day over 90, she opened a big book, started mumbling and looking around, not sure if she couldn’t see the print or didn’t hear me spell my name, I see my name, pointed to it, and she handed my a ballot, I could have pointed to any name, I probably could have walked out to my car, changed my coat and walked back in and pointed to a different name.

I had to submit finger prints, back ground check, references who were interviewed, a few hundred bucks, tell them who I work for a how much I make, and wait about 5 months to be “allowed” to buy a pistol in that same state, after you have to have that sent to a dealer, you fill out a 4473 with all your vital info, the info on the gun, another background check is run, that 4473 is not a “registry” but must always be archived... after that the dealer has to call the town hall and have the gun and sn of the gun added to your judge “gifted” permission slip to exercise your rights. At any point and for any reason that permit can be taken away and armed men will show up to your house to take your firearms.

The state knows where the real power is, and it isn’t in the 90yr old ladies book of voters and the silly little voting booths.


Also anti voter ID is REALLY racist, my black and brown friends find it pretty insulting that the government tries to pitch that they are too stupid or poor to have a ID, further no one in my entire group of friends even knows of anyone who doesn’t have a acceptable ID of some sort.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

At the end of the day, when a vote ID card is proposed unilaterally by a governing party, that most burdens the people who didn't support that party, and there's zero evidence that there's an actual problem to be solved by this ID... it's hard [for me] to see this as anything other than a partisan move to influence voting.

With my edit, I agree. Undisciplined partisan bias has always been the enemy of achieving consensus, or truth.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

True! And only a child can be a true leftist (cf Winston Churchill's famous dictum).

Sure... if you want to get serious about it I'd say it takes a child's mind to be at any extreme. It takes a child's mind to see in such simple terms.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I'm not sure whether you are joking, but this is actually a thing.

Are you familiar with the works of Abdulla Öcalan? Murray Bookchin, and indeed, Kropotkin, are also relevant.

Pretty much what I would vote for, if it were a choice (which in our idiotic two-dimensional politics, is definitely not).

Damn... as I was typing I wondered if it might be a real thing .

Not familiar with those folks, but I'll look them up. Gotta keep my reading list thick as I head into another Canadian winter .

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

With the election, we have had quite a few 120-170 year olds vote, tons of “glitches” where one side won than another side, so it’s just a fact that there are shenanigans, we shall see by December.

.

Of course, you can provide evidence to support these claims, right????

Waiting............waiting...........

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

With my edit, I agree. Undisciplined partisan bias has always been the enemy of achieving consensus, or truth.

I do think it's hard for most anybody to see it as other than partisan, but the edit works too.

Originally Posted by SalingSue

With the election, we have had quite a few 120-170 year olds vote, tons of “glitches” where one side won than another side, so it’s just a fact that there are shenanigans, we shall see by December.

This isn't 1930s Chicago.

Show me proof of significant US voter fraud (voter impersonation, actual ballot shenanigans, whatever), and what races were distorted by it, and I'll stand by your side on the subject of voter ID. We all can see where the post-election shenanigans are currently coming from.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Of course, you can provide evidence to support these claims, right????

Waiting............waiting...........

Sure





https://data.pa.gov/Government-Effic...artm/mcba-yywm

Also the Jan 1 birthdays at Dennis must get crazzzzyy!
Can you imagine the sound of that many 100+yr olds eating jello without their teeth?


If that’s legit, we need to bottle the water they drink and sell it for like $10,000 a bottle, they must have found the fountain of youth over there.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

True! And only a child can be a true leftist (cf Winston Churchill's famous dictum).



I'm not sure whether you are joking, but this is actually a thing.

Are you familiar with the works of Abdulla Öcalan? Murray Bookchin, and indeed, Kropotkin, are also relevant.

Pretty much what I would vote for, if it were a choice (which in our idiotic two-dimensional politics, is definitely not).

I don’t think it’s really a thing.

You cant be pro small government and pro individual liberty and be for big central government and “forced income equality”

Closest thing I could picture to a commie libertarian would be like a bunch of libertarians at a coop farm that was next to a free market grocery store lol

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

Sure

You've just shown us... likely data entry errors. And a wierd default value for missing DOB. Nothing more.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You've just shown us... likely data entry errors. And a wierd default value for missing DOB. Nothing more.

Can you provide evidence to support these claims?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

. . . You cant be pro small government and pro individual liberty and be for big central government and “forced income equality”. . .

I suggest reading up on the Nordic Model. By the way "forced income equality" is not part of it. Nordic income taxes are less progressive than ours -- the Finnish national income tax is FLAT. Estonia and Latvia have altogether flat income taxes. Equality is not "forced" in these countries.