U.S. to close..

[NevilleCat]

OMG

And please, what you see on your media about Australia's "overbearing lockdown" is probably just as balanced and believable as what we are fed about US and UK.
But yes there were some mild protests...dickheads all over the world and more than our fair share in Aus.
Protesting a pandemic, please people.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

OMG

And please, what you see on your media about Australia's "overbearing lockdown" is probably just as balanced and believable as what we are fed about US and UK.
But yes there were some mild protests...dickheads all over the world and more than our fair share in Aus.
Protesting a pandemic, please people.

I don't claim to know anything about it. Australia is a long ways from here and I've never even visited the country.

But I was responding to a post which proudly referred to the Victorian lockdown as the "strictest outside of China".

When it's all over, figure the total bill of that lockdown, including bankruptcies, lost jobs, deaths from other causes, suicides, early deaths because of poverty, etc., and then see whether it was really worthwhile or not.

It's a very hard policy question, which can't be answered with rabble-rousing slogans like "people before profits".


And if people were vigorously discussing, and even protesting -- there's nothing wrong with that. It's natural for there to be a variety of opinions on hard questions like this which don't have obvious answers.

[Pelagic]

I have stopped calling it a Pandemic and now refer to this event as a Feardemic.

Whatever happens.....I will remember that those who suffered the most.....
suffered not with a Bang, but a Whimper!

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

... Of course politicians like this child-like dependency on the state, and particularly, the child-like reverance of the Leader. I thought Australia was the land of rugged individualism, of free thinking people? This sounds more like the way North Koreans talk about their "Leader"...

Rugged individualism at work ...

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

............ I thought Australia was the land of rugged individualism, of free thinking people? This sounds more like the way North Koreans talk about their "Leader".

..........

As you say, you haven't been down under; it shows!
There is more daylight between a North Korean and an Aussie than there is between a dem and yesterday's orange man.

The thing is, smart free thinking rugged individuals can work together for the benefit of all.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by GordMay

On what evidence, do you make that claim?

It had been reported (April 7, 2020) that the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID), at Fort Detrick in Maryland, had begun testing potential vaccines for the novel coronavirus on non-human primates.

But, on April 10, 2020 that was corrected:
A military laboratory on Fort Detrick is not currently testing a vaccine for COVID-19 in non-human primates.

The assistant to the secretary of defense for public affairs incorrectly said earlier this week that the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases started testing a vaccine in animal models. That is not true, said Lori Salvatore, public affairs officer and strategic communications director for U.S. Army Medical Research and Development Command.

USAMRIID has not yet started testing a vaccine for the disease caused by SARS-CoV-2, Salvatore said in an email.

➥ https://www.fredericknewspost.com/ne...7d0454f62.html

You won't read about it. They will keep it quiet until all the military are given the vaccine. No need to deal with the questions of who gets it first hysteria. China has a vaccine for their military also. I live next door to Ft Detrick. Patience. The planet is WAY overpopulated anyway.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

When it's all over, figure the total bill of that lockdown, including bankruptcies, lost jobs, deaths from other causes, suicides, early deaths because of poverty, etc., and then see whether it was really worthwhile or not.

Given that, as you said earlier, we are nowhere near understanding the detail and scope or potential long term effects of this virus is it not best to act on the side of caution though?
We already have incidences of further cross-species mutation which at the very least has the potential to disrupt the quest for a vaccine and at worst a new dangerous mutation.
These things can happen in spite of the best practices but you can see how having it attributed to an environment where transmission mitigation is not taken seriously should be seen as an embarrassment if nothing else.
Or perhaps immoral.

[NevilleCat]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have stopped calling it a Pandemic and now refer to this event as a Feardemic.

Whatever happens.....I will remember that those who suffered the most.....
suffered not with a Bang, but a Whimper!

And thanks for the sympathetic response to the previous posters who listed the family and aquaintances lost.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Wotname

As you say, you haven't been down under; it shows!
There is more daylight between a North Korean and an Aussie than there is between a dem and yesterday's orange man.

The thing is, smart free thinking rugged individuals can work together for the benefit of all.

Sure! But I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.


Worshipping "strong leaders", and going to bed at night thinking how the great leader is working day and night "thinking about each and every one of them", is not how individualists of any kind, smart or otherwise, think. It's a characterstic attitude of the subjects of totalitarian states.


"Smart free-thinking individualists" think for themselves, are skeptical, don't hope that all their problems will be solved by some "strong leader".

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But what is "leadership"? Can you recognize that reliably, or even define it?

...yes? You can too, I know this.

I didn't take you for a Trumper, not that there's anything too wrong with that. Sorry for your loss.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

Given that, as you said earlier, we are nowhere near understanding the detail and scope or potential long term effects of this virus is it not best to act on the side of caution though?
We already have incidences of further cross-species mutation which at the very least has the potential to disrupt the quest for a vaccine and at worst a new dangerous mutation.
These things can happen in spite of the best practices but you can see how having it attributed to an environment where transmission mitigation is not taken seriously should be seen as an embarrassment if nothing else.
Or perhaps immoral.

I think we generally agree.

There is no doubt that this pandemic is a very serious scourge on mankind, and it requires being "taken seriously". No argument there.

But there isn't any easy "erring on the side of caution" solution. If you err on either side you can kill millions of people. 30 million unemployed in the U.S. -- that's millions of deaths. Economic costs are human costs too.

And it's not right to accuse those who may have different views as necessarily "not taking transmission mitigation seriously". I think relatively few idiots don't take it seriously. Wise men -- all taking the situation very seriously indeed -- may have different views on the optimum approach to this crisis. And we won't even know what was right until it's over.

And for God's sakes don't listen to demagogues who want you to just believe that everything they are doing is right, since they "work day and night", and are "thinking about each and every one of you".

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...yes? You can too, I know this.

I didn't take you for a Trumper, not that there's anything too wrong with that. Sorry for your loss.

What? Where did you get the idea that I'm a "Trumper"? I think you're just trolling me -- I've been pretty clear about my dim view of U.S. politics and I'm certain you know better than this. I could give you an earful about the specific claim, but it's not allowed on Cruiser's Forum.

I could give you an earful about leadership, too. I have elected officials in my close family, more than one of them, and a U.S. Army general, so I've studied the question close up. There is a big difference between leadership and demagoguery, between manipulating public opinion with fear, evoking and encouraging all their sheep-like impulses, which are not among the more noble impulses of mankind.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What? Where did you get the idea that I'm a "Trumper"? ...

I could give you an earful about leadership, too. I have elected officials in my close family, more than one of them, and a U.S. Army general, so I've studied the question close up. There is a big difference between leadership and demagoguery, between manipulating public opinion with fear, evoking and encouraging all their sheep-like impulses, which are not among the more noble impulses of mankind.

Well, that's my point. I suggested that, because in response to someone's point that COVID-19 has been a test of leadership everywhere, and that the quality of that leadership had and has a bearing on the their subjects' compliance and frame of mind... you went off on this "what is leadership" rant. It faintly resembled some of the defensiveness we've heard from Trump's supporters when the US pandemic response is discussed.

Again, COVID-19 has been a test of leadership; some have risen to the challenge, and some have been found wanting, and the performance of each leader has very much shaped the attitude, fear level and response of their country/state/province. Do you disagree with this? It has nothing to do with individualism or leader worship.

[Fbfisher]

Has the OP responded to the original question posed? What is the basis for the concern that marinas are going to close?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by NevilleCat

And thanks for the sympathetic response to the previous posters who listed the family and aquaintances lost.

I think you are missing my point.
I have empathy for every life ending, but as Dockhead reasons eloquently, we cannot just focus on one cause of death, at the expense of others.

If this were a war, there would be offensive and defensive strategies, a fog of uncertainty..... and a desire to blame others.

We are in a war!