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[atoll]

A not unexpected mutation of sars 2 to similar mortality rates as sars 1 of 13-16% ,which is its closest comparable coronavirus mutation, would soon improve uptake of the vaccine which should provide immunity to similar future strains.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

I don't know who you mean by this. We are guided by propaganda in one form or another.

Propaganda is a neutral term.

Very few people seek to alter peoples' minds for overtly nefarious reasons. Almost everyone operates from a perspective of good, or right.

Again, this is the real insight behind the banality of evil thesis.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Very few people seek to alter peoples' minds for overtly nefarious reasons. Almost everyone operates from a perspective of good, or right.

That is exactly right. Most of us are good. But are manipulated by the few.

[TrentePieds]

Mike Sez: "Very few people seek to alter peoples' minds for overtly nefarious reasons. Almost everyone operates from a perspective of good, or right."

You can't mean that, Mike. Don't you see the car ads that run constantly on the CBC? Let alone Jason Kenney's bloviations!

Surely Jeep's "80th Anniversary" ads are right up there with camouflage sportwear in their nefarious celebration of aggressiveness?

Best stick to the Knowledge Channel IMO :-)!

TP

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Mike Sez: "Very few people seek to alter peoples' minds for overtly nefarious reasons. Almost everyone operates from a perspective of good, or right."

You can't mean that, Mike. Don't you see the car ads that run constantly on the CBC? Let alone Jason Kenney's bloviations!

Surely Jeep's "80th Anniversary" ads are right up there with camouflage sportwear in their nefarious celebration of aggressiveness?

Best stick to the Knowledge Channel IMO :-)!

TP

I know you're taking this lightly, but I definitely DO mean what I say. And this is clearly supported in the piles of human behavioral research that we now have.

The car sellers DO think you're better off with their car. And Kenney definitely believes his actions are the best interest of Alberta. Neither are sitting in a dark corner, chortling away while wringing their hands, thinking 'how can I screw these people?'

There are definitely some people who do act out of malice. We tend to call these people socio or psychopaths, or diagnose them with some other psychological malady. But I've never yet met a politician, or salesperson, who was in it to harm people.

Not saying these people don't exist, but that's not the norm.


TU mentioned "Manufacturing Consent" -- a must read for everyone. But here again, the revelation in the book is not that there is an Illuminati directing the creation of societal consent. It is that we are all complicit in the activity; the leaders, the media AND the readers/viewers. That is the message Chomsky is communicating.

[TrentePieds]

Isn't the "I meant no harm" defense right up there with the "I was only following orders" defense when proof of harm having been done is palpable? I thot that was stated with some forcefulness in 1946?

TP

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Isn't the "I meant no harm" defense right up there with the "I was only following orders" defense when proof of harm having been done is palpable? I thot that was stated with some forcefulness in 1946?

TP

Yes ... but the proof of harm was not palpable ... at least that's what the accused said. This is Arendt's insight.

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Propaganda is a neutral term.

Very few people seek to alter peoples' minds for overtly nefarious reasons. Almost everyone operates from a perspective of good, or right.

Again, this is the real insight behind the banality of evil thesis.

It’s do gooders, a group Id recommend to renounce their citizenship, or lock themselves in their basements without internet.

These are the people who caused all the dumb 9/11 laws, chasing down a single paddle boarder in the oceans for covid, and historically ones who let the nazis and commies take hold and grow like a tumor

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
C.S. Lewis

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by SalingSue

It’s do gooders, a group Id recommend to renounce their citizenship, or lock themselves in their basements without internet.

These are the people who caused all the dumb 9/11 laws, chasing down a single paddle boarder in the oceans for covid, and historically ones who let the nazis and commies take hold and grow like a tumor

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
C.S. Lewis

I don't know if C.S. Lewis is right or wrong about that but
I have no doubt that we do live under robber barons.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

...The car sellers DO think you're better off with their car...

On groupthink paradigms vs individual value conflicts:

TLDR; parents should show their kids the video below

Perhaps I've linked this before, but below is a 7 minute video describing a model of psychology described by a psychiatrist named Dabrowski who, like Viktor Frankl (Man's Search for meaning psychiatrist) experienced a WWII prison camp, an experience-type I agree provides unique insights to an individual (no mud, no lotus type deal).

The video pertains to a theory about how personality develops, and Dabrowski is perhaps more noteworthy for research/theory on gifted people, but even in this sketch some themes are mentioned that....if everyone learned Dabrowski in Psych 101 (instead of Freud)...so many "personal mental health conditions" would be re-conceptualized as consequences of a "sick society." BUT to think this ways shifts blame of "mental health problems" to the society, making mental health workers seem more like 'prison psychologists' than insightful professionals who understand the human condition.

But principally I'd call note to how he conceptualized peoples' struggle with group-think paradigm vs going-your-own, and the ordinary internal conflict this brings. I can never keep Freud's crap straight, but we've got our "social-acceptance self" and our "individual self" that is/is not in conflict were, as depicted, salesmen ordinarily just go with the flow.

https://youtu.be/Wdl2BUXPYLQ

[TrentePieds]

"What the accused said" should certainly be taken into consideration — that, in fact, is part of Arent's thesis, no doubt as a result of the Sittengesetze of her background — but it is, obviously, not the only thing one considers in coming to a conclusion, in rendering judgement, if you will.

I think it is very clear that the consequences of, let us say, issuing an edict that small retailers must close their shops, while "box stores" are permitted to stay open, are palpable, i.e. perceptible.

The Premier of a certain populous Canadian province is hardly an evil man in any sense of the word. He appears to be fairly representative of the Canadian "man in the street", and panic-stricken with it.

One can feel a bit of pity for him, but in my book, "I meant no harm" is simply not good enough! Nor does his hiding behind the provincial CMOH look good on him.

So we come back to the question of why so many perfectly well meaning but ignorant men rise to "positions of power". What aspects of our society is it that militates against the attainment of what — since we were slipping into German courtesy of Arent — the Germans so aptly call Allgemeinbildung?

I contend that Allgemeinbildung in North America (and by now in most other places as well) is a function of advertising, whether it be formal or informal via social media, rather than of the influence of parents and schools. You will agree that I am not the only one to entertain that notion. It is clear to all of us that there is no single "evil genius" behind "Madison Avenue". It is equally clear, at least to me, that the effect of advertising is both palpable and injurious to society's good, i.e. to both Gesellschaft and Gemeinschaft.

So what are we gonna do about it :-)?

TP

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

I don't know if C.S. Lewis is right or wrong about that but
I have no doubt that we do live under robber barons.

Oh he was right, very much so.


I know more than a fair share of people, the types who are the 10% trying to act like the 1% while advocating for the poor, but hit their power locks when they see a black guy, they tell everyone how they should live their lives, yet couldn’t change their own tire, discipline their own kids, are living the debt lifestyle, all while looking down their nose at people who don’t feel they need to use the biggest word possible, don’t owe a dollar and actually probably make more money. And lest you point any of that out, they’ll ether say it’s a “whataboutism” or just have a melt down.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

... It is clear to all of us that there is no single "evil genius" behind "Madison Avenue". It is equally clear, at least to me, that the effect of advertising is both palpable and injurious to society's good, i.e. to both Gesellschaft and Gemeinschaft.

So what are we gonna do about it :-)?

TP

Advertisers and marketers will say they are engaged in the critical activity of informing consumers. Capitalism is supposed to function best when consumers are informed-consumers. Advertising and marketing is one way for consumers to learn about products and services.

They're doing g-d's work .

[SalingSue]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Advertisers and marketers will say they are engaged in the critical activity of informing consumers. Capitalism is supposed to function best when consumers are informed-consumers. Advertising and marketing is one way for consumers to learn about products and services.

They're doing g-d's work .

Lol “informing”

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

... It is clear to all of us that there is no single "evil genius" behind "Madison Avenue". It is equally clear, at least to me, that the effect of advertising is both palpable and injurious to society's good, i.e. to both Gesellschaft and Gemeinschaft.

You can't have capitalism yet not allow advertising. Freedom of speech, free access to markets, etc. Also you can draw a fairly sharp line between straight up advertising (please buy my stuff), and opinion-shaping (climate change isn't real). I think you'll find that there's not too much overlap between mainstream advertisers and the PR/opinion manipulators.

(and we weren't doing God's work, but we raised Hell at some great parties! )