U.S. to close..

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Of course, you missed the point. As with Carnegie and Rockefeller, they both did a lot of good towards the end of their lives but that was built on a foundation of anything it took to get to the top. Or are you trying to claim, purposely running a competitor into bankruptcy so you could buy cheap had a "good" intention behind it?

Of course, I didn't. People still flock to Carnegie Hall (when they can), use those libraries, benefit from endowments and grants. When Carnegie Hall gets a new name, I'll concede your observation had relevance.

PS: Why would I dump money into an inefficient govt system that more often than not does the opposite of philanthropy? It's funny how a lot of these older philanthropists suggest taxes should be higher, yet, they still maintain a bevy of accountants to minimize their tax bill.

...Because they're smart! (I heard this from some orange guy). It's not a crime to seek to pay the lowest possible LEGAL tax. The moral failing is in government not taxing the wealthy enough, which has strengthened their hold over the US political system.

Why has the right adopted this stance of sh!tting on anyone trying to do some good? Only the right could coin a term like "social justice", say it with a sneer, and turn it into something to be derided. Our grandmothers ran bake sales and clothes drives out of church basements. Today, they'd be derided as social justice warriors. Insufferable old do-gooders!

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Yes, the wealthy countries will get it first but there's no pretense that the vaccines wouldn't be distributed worldwide and no country is going to turn them down.

Who is going pay? or: WHO is going to pay?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Of course, I didn't. People still flock to Carnegie Hall (when they can), use those libraries, benefit from endowments and grants. When Carnegie Hall gets a new name, I'll concede your observation had relevance.

...Because they're smart! (I heard this from some orange guy). It's not a crime to seek to pay the lowest possible LEGAL tax. The moral failing is in government not taxing the wealthy enough, which has strengthened their hold over the US political system.

Why has the right adopted this stance of sh!tting on anyone trying to do some good? Only the right could coin a term like "social justice", say it with a sneer, and turn it into something to be derided. Our grandmothers ran bake sales and clothes drives out of church basements. Today, they'd be derided as social justice warriors. Insufferable old do-gooders!

So the "ends justify the means"? You seem to be glossing over the horrible things they did to get that money to fund their philanthropy.

The orange guy, as you call him, to my knowledge hasn't espoused higher taxes, so nothing hypocritical about him paying people to figure out how to legally pay less. On the other hand, rich guys saying we should tax the heck out of the rich while paying legions of accountants and lawyers to minimize their tax bill is very hypocritical.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

Who is going pay? or: WHO is going to pay?

Estimates for western countries are currently between $3-30. I'm sure that includes a lot of sunk costs for the development, so by the time they get around to providing for the poor countries, the drug companies will have that covered and can sell cheaper while still profiting. Also, that includes the cost professional westerners administering it. In poor countries, their medical staff get paid a lot less further reducing the costs.

You may see the poor countries focused on the cheaper options that require normal refrigeration.

But lots of sources may get it out there:
- Most individuals can come up with $5-10 if needed.
- Govts will likely subsidize so that they can open back up to the world because it will cost more to be kept isolated.
- Western Govts will likely help out from a humanitarian position because they don't want it cropping back up.

There will be some challenges but there really is no scenario where a country won't get wide scale vaccinations. It's mostly a question of what order it will happen in and who exactly pays...not if it will happen.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So the "ends justify the means"? You seem to be glossing over the horrible things they did to get that money to fund their philanthropy.

Not at all... only that if that's going to be a thing, better start tearing down Carnegie Hall, close those libraries and hospitals, cancel those endowments...

Also, Microsoft certainly played (and plays) hardball, but that's really no different than the other big tech companies, or most other big corporations. Use their software? Own their stocks? We all have dirty hands.

[Thumbs Up]

Is it time to talk about how robber barons programmed our society? It is a very deep rabbit hole.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by UFO

You seem to like comparing scratching yourself to vaccines - Say I am unfair you are be disingenuous - Humans have built up a healthy immune system to this planet naturally over a million years, so being injected with a genetically modified protein or Virus is totally different and bares ZERO comparison.

Also I feel that you are cherry picking a bit...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/...s-coronavirus/

Yes the gut is key and many scientists have linked childhood issues with the Gut and Vaccines. Also there has been a huge increase in Chronic illness in the last 40 years, a time when the vaccine schedule has increased dramatically - 6 in 10 Americas with at least 1 and 4 in 10 with 2 or more chronic illnesses - It could be coincidence or it could not be - I'd have thought the CDC would do some serious research into this, but they have not to my knowledge.

The same as why they do not research the two separate groups for Chronic Illness or Autism - The Vaccinated against the Un-vaccinated - All the data is there with today's computerised medical records, so why have they not done it? - Put the issue to bed once and for all.

"Quit your belly* aching" says a parent to their child. A lot to unpack here, I encourage you to read it as you're an independent thinker; Australian research plays a roll.

First, as Gord stated, evolution is not about strongest, it is about most suited for the environment. So much as Jesus said this (meek inherit the Earth...while modern researchers otherwise speculate that New Testament authors may include this point to encourage the population to be, frankly, sheep-like within the context of of Roman empirical rule, where for the next 1,000 years no one was allowed to read the Bible, sent off to battle for kings/the church, but I digress).

On critical thinking. Fit = something that connects, where connecting may not be what we like. Recall the pre-Aristotle understanding of cause and effect. Aristotle logic is a thought handicap...good for narrow-scope explainations of things but completely deficient to see the big picture. Aristotle logic = seeing with a flashlight, pre-Aristotle/Eastern thinking = turning on the overhead light, seeing the larger pattern. Aristotle logic = marketing, politicians, lawyers, religious leaders...."follow our flashlight beam please...no, we insist."

Eastern/scientific thinking is seeing patterns in patterns in patterns evolving over time. They repeat all over the place with a lot of similarity such that you don't have to fill in blanks with conspiracies and made up language/rhetoric to understand things (understand = have a picture in your head that you literally stand under, a picture you could write on paper with few gaps, and no "conspiracy fits here" business). But you DO have to formally study things so as to not fill in gaps with rhetoric/conjecture. Point being, with evolution you need to account for every variable in the system, not just hold up (Aristotle-style) "vaccine statistics vs autism" as this can have disastrous effects (see bottom).

I don't mean to beat you over the head with this, but you don't seem to understand molecular biology, which is basically flexible Tinkertoys that flop in certain fashions, and the maths is pretty straight-forward too. Anyone can understand it, but you have to commit time. Indeed a new mRNA vaccine is "new" but, if it causes problems, 99.99% of the time you're going to see them early (first few/several months). If the disease burden is greater than 0.002, then in Vegas you put your money on the vaccine. That might go against your "gut* instinct" but that's how math/the universe works, and it's how, for example, uber-rich people program their stock-trading algorithms. [[but, critically, the fidelity of the 99.99 and 0.002 numbers is paramount, as is manufacturing and delivering the vaccine into the body in the same manner as described in the study]]

At some point your mind/body interacts with the environment. Believe it or not, your immune system is the principle ambassador there; the immune system (and other systems) so much as encourages you what to think, what to look at, how you perceive it. For present purposes, it's enough to understand that "inflammation changes biology" as an axiom.

A caged animal will ordinarily have increased stress levels. Increased stress = increased augmentation immune function...increased allergies, auto-immune disease, increased cancer, increased "mental illness," increased production of off-spring that are "neuro-atypical" (teleologically such off-spring includes cadres (Einstein, Tesla, etc) with increased pattern-recognition ability to help the herd escape). NONE of this is helpful when we don't migrate, are stuck, and assume that it's normal to live in a house amongst a billion people for 80 years and be joyful. So notwithstanding universally bad toxins in the environment...stressful living should be understood to increase the % of the population having diseases that perhaps you link to vaccines.

To say "Dr. _______ has shown that GI* bugs influence disease" is like saying "Private ______ during the Battle of the Bulge discovered that there was a war going on." This GI business is not unknown to medicine whatsoever............but there are more combinations of variable at play in the gut than molecules in the known universe, such that it's specious to too-readily connect dots.....BUT....people naturally know that there's something there....so these books/ideas sell, again even if the "I know the connection"by Dr. ______ stuff is contrived.

*The gut's nervous system (enteric) is thought to be the ~earlier brain in people, an understanding recently made perhaps more popular by an Australian paper (superficial summary here), where it's perhaps helpful to understand that the gut talks to you in it's own way. If you have kids, you know that when they're upset for any reason, they tend to have an upset stomach, maybe multiple trips to the doc to eval for appendicitis. But this persists into adulthood with many people (disproportionately women) being labeled as "irritable bowel syndrome" or might have biopsies finding 'microscopic colitis' which is tantamount to 'eczema of the poop pipe.'

But interesting how this plays out. If your gut (one way or another) has a large influences your evolution and behavior, how you see things....and your "gut instinct" is to put your chips on the wrong spot in Vegas (given information available to you (i.e. in a book somewhere that you could access), but ignored 'cause you didn't want to study), then you don't have a survival advantage, all else equal. The universe might say, when this happens, that it's encouraged you to sleep with the fishes earlier in life. <----applied evolution
-------------------------------
Vaccines vs autism. What if the following was the "real reality":
-Parents claim vaccines cause autism
-Docs say "no they don't....here is 4 million pages of proof"
-debate rages. Attention focused (myopic) on vaccine vs autism
-meanwhile, paracetamol (and a couple other things) use more likely causes autism
-paracetamol continues to be used, more kids get autism
-because of reduced vaccine used, more kids get disease
-Anti-vaxxers feel self-validation on Earth
-Followers of anti-vaxxers feel self-validation on Earth
-Booksellers of pro/con vaccines make money
-Lawyers make money on lawsuits
-more research to develop different vaccines and/or further defend "vaccines don't cause autism" stuff

So in the above: kids lose with autism and more disease, parents are wrong, doctors are wrong, lots of people make money. <-----evolution

In Aristotle's logic of everyday thought and courtrooms, you only have to "prove" things to yourself. In the sciences, you're supposed to be right for the right reason (account for all the variables in a system causing a problem). The less you understand the science (i.e. pattern and variables), the less able you are to discern chance vs something closer to cause and effect (where statistics based on system information is again paramount for anything close to validation).

"The innocent man in jail is one victim; the real murderer left on the street creates many more victims" or "The more difficult problem in life is recognizing real problems, not in finding solutions to hard problems...as within a hard problem is always some simple problem...which is the only real problem."

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

..............
And as a bonus, the stimulus money isn't just being thrown around randomly. It's being used to accomplish a goal.

You might want to do some more research on this fraudulent conclusion.


Just ask Mnuchin...Katie Porter did.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

You might want to do some more research on this fraudulent conclusion....

On the subject of "what [govt spending] is designed to do" a now sort of old joke.

The defense department asked industry for a stealthy aircraft that could avoid radar. The defense industry supplied just such aircraft.

Indeed, the aircraft could not be detected by radar, except for when the aircraft were wet (as if flown through precipitation, skin still moist). When this occurred, enemy radar would only pick up the signature of something like a small bird, like an owl or sparrow. So Russian radar operators were trained 5 minutes to pay attention to tracks of 500mph small birds across their scopes.

So it's correct that the $$$$$$ spent on stealth technology did what it was designed to do--transfer money from the treasury to the defense industry.

Not true, but not 100% false.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

If you don't trust "His Orangeness", nor the CDC, then how about all the other regulatory bodies around the world which are going through the same process of verifying the vaccine companies' research, and moving through their approval processes?

I too am critical and skeptical of such a fast process. But I've spent some time looking at the trials and data from some of the candidates. I've also read some of the reasoning as to how it happened so fast. I am more comfortable now that I was a week or so ago.

I will be rolling up my sleeve when the time comes. Although I must admit I'm happy that I won't be near the front of the line .

I just dont trust His Orangeness or the cast of other scum bags he has surrounded himself with. He has compromised the CDC and many other credible institutions. WHO is mostly beyond his reach fortunately.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Not at all... only that if that's going to be a thing, better start tearing down Carnegie Hall, close those libraries and hospitals, cancel those endowments...

Also, Microsoft certainly played (and plays) hardball, but that's really no different than the other big tech companies, or most other big corporations. Use their software? Own their stocks? We all have dirty hands.

No one suggested tearing down Carnegie Hall. Your off on a tangent that not's relevant to the discussion. The point is we shouldn't hold him up as a hero because he ruined lives to make the money to build Carnegie Hall.

Would you be happy if I confiscated your bank accounts, retirement accounts, pension and your boat...then 20-30yrs later, I build a soup kitchen and named it after myself? Or is that somehow different because it effects you.

Funny how it's "playing hardball" when it supports a position. As far as using their software...that's the whole issue with monopolies. It creates a situation where there is no viable alternative. And no not all companies purposely try to drive the competition out of business.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

You might want to do some more research on this fraudulent conclusion.

Just ask Mnuchin...Katie Porter did.

Tell us exactly how it's fraudulent.

If they are going to throw money around like drunken sailors (and they've made it abundantly clear that is their intent), at least try to get some value out of it.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

I just dont trust His Orangeness or the cast of other scum bags he has surrounded himself with. He has compromised the CDC and many other credible institutions. WHO is mostly beyond his reach fortunately.

I don't trust his HairSniffiness and his cast of scum bags any more than his Orangemess and they had many years to compromise the CDC and WHO among other organizations...really just a question of which direction it was compromised.

You give his Orangeness far too much credit to think during his short time in office when largely held in check by an antagonistic house, that he could do so much. Or are you suggesting his HairSniffiness isn't as good of an executive to push things back the way he wants?

I think Trump is a loon and has an agenda...but that describes pretty much everyone in Washington. If there's any consolation, he at least is pretty open about what he is doing. You can't complain that he tricked you on anything he wants to do. Unlike the Austin Tx mayor who with a straight face issued a facebook video telling his constituents that they should isolate in place and not travel over thanksgiving in the name of the Rona...issued from Cabo San Lucas where he took his family on a private jet for thanksgiving (similar stories are common).

[Thumbs Up]

I never liked the can't beat 'em join 'em mentality. But it does have it's merits. Maybe I should switch sides. (am I being paranoid?) Perhaps a few of you might know. Can I get paid to defend the status quo on social media? What is the going rate? (Please don't say 42)

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't trust his HairSniffiness and his cast of scum bags any more than his Orangemess

His HairSniffles has an agenda too, though he might not remember what it is. These guys will keep him on task though: https://www.cfr.org/transition-2021