U.S. to close..

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by UFO

Trouble is they all are, Trump is not different to the rest of them, except he is inept at hiding it.

I think all politicians are corrupt to a degree, politics is an inately dirt business. But Trump was corrupt long before he got into politics and took it way over the top as President...makes Tricky Dick Nixon look like a grade school prankster.

Unfortunately the point of view that all are equally dirty, which I dont think is borne out by fact, is a line of reasonsing that makes voting for someone like Trump acceptable.

See "banality of evil" upstream.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by UFO

One thing you have to be pretty happy about, is he has to a degree lived up to his pre election hyperbole to withdraw US troops and reduce the amount of drone and elite forces involvement in foreign countries, which Obama and Bush went to town own - Obama more Elite forces and drones rather than just brute army force like Bush.

I give him that, and couple of more things. The irony with Trump is he could have been actually a really good president but he choosed not to. He just went on without any consideration of collateral damage or deasency..
nicely put I think?

[UFO]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

I think all politicians are corrupt to a degree, politics is an inately dirt business. But Trump was corrupt long before he got into politics and took it way over the top as President...makes Tricky Dick Nixon look like a grade school prankster.

Unfortunately the point of view that all are equally dirty, which I dont think is borne out by fact, is a line of reasonsing that makes voting for someone like Trump acceptable.

See "banality of evil" upstream.

You are correct that some are certainly more corrupt than others, But they all have there hands dirty to some degree - maybe it's just how the system is set up and that those who try to do good and the right thing never get anywhere in politics.


I remember in Australia when Kevin Rudd went up against the mining corps, he was disposed of pretty quickly and in came Julia Gillard who dropped all Rudd's' plans, only for herself at a later date to go head to head with them and she was disposed. The only good thing she did you can see in this video, at least she gave everyone a laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ZS-CId_hs

Corporations and big money seem to have a massive amount of control of Governments in the West.

[GordMay]

“COVID-19 becomes top killer in U.S. as hospitals fill up”
The coronavirus surpassed heart disease as the leading cause of death in the United States this week, as many of the nation's hospitals are overwhelmed, and officials implement new COVID-19 restrictions.
A record-breaking 227,00 new cases were reported in the U.S. on Friday alone — the first time the daily case count has topped 220,000, according to a tally from Johns Hopkins University.
An average of 2,000 people have died of the disease each day since last Saturday. The total U.S. death toll is over a quarter-million, and projections, coming from the White House, show it could hit half a million by March.
CBS News ➥ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-1...tag=MSF0951a18

“COVID-19 Results Briefing: the United States of America” ~ Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IMHE)
➥ http://www.healthdata.org/sites/defa...S_20201204.pdf

“CDC issues new guidance for "universal mask wearing" in all activity outside of home”
➥ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cdc-gui...tag=MSF0951a18

[Dockhead]

Interesting article in today's NYT, concerning the "Swiss cheese model of pandemic defense":



"The metaphor is easy enough to grasp: Multiple layers of protection, imagined as cheese slices, block the spread of the new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. No one layer is perfect; each has holes, and when the holes align, the risk of infection increases. But several layers combined — social distancing, plus masks, plus hand-washing, plus testing and tracing, plus ventilation, plus government messaging — significantly reduce the overall risk"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/05/h...tml?ref=oembed


Makes a lot of sense to me. And this may be partially explain the relative success of the measures in disciplined, cohesive societies like Northern Europe, Taiwan, Japan etc., compared to fractured politicized societies like the U.S. -- in the U.S. the focus has been on dramatic and mandatory measures, many of them unsustainable. This is what is politically possible in such a society. Whereas the hard work of getting multiple small measures taken consistently -- all these "Swiss cheese" layers -- especially voluntary measures, measures which can't be enacted with the stroke of the legislative pen -- is lost in the shuffle of the culture war and all the politics. When the dramatic unsustainable measures are lifted, society is left without any effective tools to keep up the fight, so the virus just runs rampant again.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Interesting article in today's NYT, concerning the "Swiss cheese model....
- in the U.S. the focus has been on dramatic and mandatory measures, many of them unsustainable. This is what is politically possible in such a society. Whereas the hard work of getting multiple small measures taken consistently -- all these "Swiss cheese" layers -- especially voluntary measures, measures which can't be enacted with the stroke of the legislative pen -- is lost in the shuffle of the culture war and all the politics. When the dramatic unsustainable measures are lifted, society is left without any effective tools to keep up the fight, so the virus just runs rampant again.

Outside of the harsh measures implemented in some hotspots, has the US response ever amounted to a concerted effort? The early politicization seems to have doomed all substantive attempts. If the set of small voluntary measures are slices of Swiss cheese, a significant number of Americans have been convinced they are lactose-intolerant.

Some ugly months to slog through before the vaccines start making a difference.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...Makes a lot of sense to me. And this may be partially explain the relative success of the measures in disciplined, cohesive societies like Northern Europe, Taiwan, Japan etc., compared to fractured politicized societies like the U.S. -- in the U.S. the focus has been on dramatic and mandatory measures, many of them unsustainable. This is what is politically possible in such a society. Whereas the hard work of getting multiple small measures taken consistently -- all these "Swiss cheese" layers -- especially voluntary measures, measures which can't be enacted with the stroke of the legislative pen -- is lost in the shuffle of the culture war and all the politics. When the dramatic unsustainable measures are lifted, society is left without any effective tools to keep up the fight, so the virus just runs rampant again.

Yup, makes sense to me as well. Societies that have done well in this pandemic are ones that can act collectively. They can put these multiple layers in place without drama or cries of "stolen freedoms!"

Places where individuals can act for the good of everyone, not just themselves, are doing better. Societies that are more individualistic, are doing worse. And of course, societies which politicize public health measures for short term political gain are doing the worst of all.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

I give him that, and couple of more things. The irony with Trump is he could have been actually a really good president but he choosed not to. He just went on without any consideration of collateral damage or deasency..
nicely put I think?

Was he really given a chance to be a "really good president"?

His candidacy, nomination, election received the most aggressive and negative press that I have ever witnessed!

Starting with ridicule/personal attacks/ deep state meddling and a boycott of his inauguration where impeachment attacks had already begun.... No wonder he was defensive and aggressive to all who criticised his ideas

If Obama had received the same treatment, cries of racism would have rung loudly from every corner of the world...

Given the mantle of being a divisive President, you have to wonder what could have been achieved if they had been able to work together

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yup, makes sense to me as well. Societies that have done well in this pandemic are ones that can act collectively. They can put these multiple layers in place without drama or cries of "stolen freedoms!"

Places where individuals can act for the good of everyone, not just themselves, are doing better. Societies that are more individualistic, are doing worse. And of course, societies which politicize public health measures for short term political gain are doing the worst of all.

Early on I wanted to wear a mask and I was chastised by my sister who pointed out, per Fauci, that I shouldn’t wear a mask unless I had the virus.

In our business we were early adopters of safety measures. We had wipes, hand sanitizer and a plexiglass shield up before practically all other businesses in our area and certainly before the grocery stores and we have operated safely since the beginning with no infections.

My position has been, “If our business can do it any business can do it.”

I think the problem started in the US when the governors began mandating. From what I read, (and this may be untrue!) Sweden did very well with few mandates.

Mike, you can correct me if I’m wrong but it appears that a society with strong convictions about personal freedom will respond much better to sensible guidance than it will to mandates.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Was he really given a chance to be a "really good president"?

His candidacy, nomination, election received the most aggressive and negative press that I have ever witnessed!

This was always HIS choice and operating mode, starting many years before the 2016 campaign. He's always sought the spotlight by being brash, outrageous and by courting controversy. He's always been the poster-boy for shameless self-promotion. He's always baited and demonized the press. It's been a centerpiece of his persona. What should he expect in return?

"... given a chance"? What - this is kindergarten where everyone gets a turn? Good is as good does. He had 4 years to lead, to keep his promises, and a serious but straightforward crisis that most world leaders have stepped up for. He's made the US great... for the wealthy, and he's come up short for everyone else.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... list them, please. To save us both some time, don't include the things that ANY GOP politician not in jail would also have done.

The fact that you can't list one tells me you still have the TDS blinders on, so not much point having you use your TDS to try can cut down any positives.

But just for fun...how about overseeing a program that got a viable vaccine out that would normally take 10yrs in 10 months (let's see the spin you come back with).

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

...I think the problem started in the US when the governors began mandating. From what I read, (and this may be untrue!) Sweden did very well with few mandates.

Mike, you can correct me if I’m wrong but it appears that a society with strong convictions about personal freedom will respond much better to sensible guidance than it will to mandates.

(OK, so we'll see we we can have a civil dialogue)

As the Swiss cheese model suggests, it requires individuals to take personal responsibility for others. It's obviously possible for more individualistic people to do this; they fight wars and build bridges after all, so it is possible. But I'd say it takes more focused and clear effort. It doesn't come naturally. And when fighting a foe like a virus, it becomes all the more necessary to have clear and consistent messaging.

Mandates are necessary when people can't, or won't, act collectively. It's why we have laws, and police to enforce them. I think the Nordic countries offer a real illustration of how societies can act effectively without the need for state mandates.

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

The fact that you can't list one tells me you still have the TDS blinders on, so not much point having you use your TDS to try can cut down any positives.

But just for fun...how about overseeing a program that got a viable vaccine out that would normally take 10yrs in 10 months (let's see the spin you come back with).

Valhalla, while not trying to diminish this (perhaps only) Trump accomplishment, other countries have also managed to come up with vaccines in the same time frame. The challenge now will be how these vaccines are distributed. I fear the US will not do as well as countries with national health care systems (like Canada, Europe, New Zealand and even Brazil) that have a system already in place for national vaccine programs. Just imagine the national database you need to keep track of who gets vaccines, not to mention coordinating the distribution and control of vaccines.

[Jason Flare]

Vaccine.

A timely vaccine is much less important than a safe and effective vaccine.

If this vaccine has side effects it will give the anti-vaxers enough ammunition to set vaccines back 75 years.

Be careful what you wish for in a timely vaccine.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

(OK, so we'll see we we can have a civil dialogue)

As the Swiss cheese model suggests, it requires individuals to take personal responsibility for others. It's obviously possible for more individualistic people to do this; they fight wars and build bridges after all, so it is possible. But I'd say it takes more focused and clear effort. It doesn't come naturally. And when fighting a foe like a virus, it becomes all the more necessary to have clear and consistent messaging.

Mandates are necessary when people can't, or won't, act collectively. It's why we have laws, and police to enforce them. I think the Nordic countries offer a real illustration of how societies can act effectively without the need for state mandates.

All the things we did to take responsibility for ourselves and protect ourselves protected other people.

Put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.