U.S. to close..

[Copacabana]

Originally Posted by Jason Flare

There was a serious side effect early on. Something to do with spinal something and a trial had to be halted. I don’t know how all that turned out. From what I’ve seen the actual stats on the side effects or lack thereof haven’t been made public.

Personally I would take my chances with the virus largely because I think the vaccine producers are in a race against herd immunity and as you pointed out with a million Americans a week getting the virus it’s a tight race.

My reason to not engage in risky behavior and purposely get the virus is I do not want to transmit it to others once I’m contagious and not aware I have it.

I’m less worried about this particular natural virus than I am a vaccine . And yes, I am old enough to be in a higher risk group.

At any rate, most people here, Mike O’Reilly and TrentePieds to name two I can recall offhand, have said that they would prefer others take the vaccine first, and I agree with them.

So, for me I’ll see who wins the race. Will I get covid before I take a vaccine I trust?

We’ll see.

All of this is to repeat, If there are serious side effect it will set trust in vaccines back 75 years.

It's normal protocol to halt trials when any subject gets sick or presents complications. They have to determine the cause of the complication before resuming trials. The fact that they continued the trial should put you at ease. When you have 40,000 people in a trial, odds are that a few will have a heart attack or something. This actually became comical in Brazil when a trial subject died and the president (who has politicized masks and vaccines) used the incident to make the claim the vaccine wasn't safe. It turned out the subject had committed suicide.

I applaud your concern for others and the fact that you have been very careful in your place of business. We need more people like you.

Your last point I agree with. If they botch this, we'll have a hard time convincing people to take vaccines in the future. I'm confident things will work out though.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Copacabana

It's normal protocol to halt trials when any subject gets sick or presents complications. They have to determine the cause of the complication before resuming trials. The fact that they continued the trial should put you at ease. When you have 40,000 people in a trial, odds are that a few will have a heart attack or something. This actually became comical in Brazil when a trial subject died and the president (who has politicized masks and vaccines) used the incident to make the claim the vaccine wasn't safe. It turned out the subject had committed suicide.

I applaud your concern for others and the fact that you have been very careful in your place of business. We need more people like you.

Your last point I agree with. If they botch this, we'll have a hard time convincing people to take vaccines in the future. I'm confident things will work out though.

Thank you.

I became aware of the virus on Jan. 4th and kept close tabs on it.

At this point I personally know 10 people who have had the virus. The age range is 2 years to 90 years.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

The same article contradicts itself....

The article was written by this guy, not the CDC.

This is the report that the author of the link attempted to consolidate, where the CDC report is not self-contradictory and doesn't suggest a need to wear a mask outside raking leaves or whatever.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/...49e2_w#T1_down

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Interesting article in today's NYT, concerning the "Swiss cheese model of pandemic defense":

Attachment 228197

"The metaphor is easy enough to grasp: Multiple layers of protection, imagined as cheese slices, block the spread of the new coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19. No one layer is perfect; each has holes, and when the holes align, the risk of infection increases. But several layers combined — social distancing, plus masks, plus hand-washing, plus testing and tracing, plus ventilation, plus government messaging — significantly reduce the overall risk"

..............................

Makes a lot of sense to me, too.


The problem is: That was ALL we had back in February, and is STILL the only thing we have.


And what do we get?


Denial
Delusion
Dummies

Stupidity
Stochastic terrorism


Iowa, N & S Dakota and even (gasp!) Alberta are beginning to wise up.


Too little, too late.


What a shame.

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Makes a lot of sense to me, too.

The problem is: That was ALL we had back in February, and is STILL the only thing we have.

And what do we get?

Denial
Delusion
Dummies

Stupidity
Stochastic terrorism......

What a shame.

Friedrich Nietzsche: "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."

Is a different way of saying "those who understood the maths from the outset were thought to be insane by those who could not see the maths for themselves." ~12 months later an infographic helps conceptualize terms like "layers of defense" while also giving visual representation of proportionality.

I suggest that this is biological/evolutionary and will always be with us, shame or not. For that matter, shame wiring varies among individuals, sort of tied to the ego defense associated with each side's perspective.

[Thumbs Up]

You would think that CBS news would proof read their articles.

Another topic for those who think they are following the science is the stock market. You are not following the science. You are following press releases. Every press release affects stock sales. The media knows this. Big pharma knows this. They play public perception like a piano. There is talk of possible reproductive harm. Fighting vaccine hesitancy is the #1 concern. When the Polio shot rolled out, a defective version was given to 200,000 people and caused 40,000 additional cases. Decades later, the same lab (by then bought by Bayer) knowingly sold its AIDS tainted hemophilia medicine overseas. Polio numbers didn't plummet until they changed the diagnoses criteria. What was then diagnosed as polio is now called Guillain-Barre.
The SV40 virus remained in the shots for years and are implicated in many of todays cancers. These are well documented facts (that they don't mention on the news). When they do release the full data from the studies, their stocks (as well as public confidence) will take a hit.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

... But just for fun...how about overseeing a program that got a viable vaccine out that would normally take 10yrs in 10 months (let's see the spin you come back with).

Launched in May, Operation Warp Speed (OWS), a Trump administration initiative to manufacture COVID-19 vaccines as fast as possible,should be lauded as a successful endeavour, in what has otherwise been a poor effort to deal with the coronavirus.

Moderna benefited tremendously from Operation Warp Speed, in part, by receiving close to $1 billion to support its vaccine development and clinical trials.
Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine development and manufacturing costs have been entirely funded by the company. However, it did strike a deal with Operation Warp Speed for the U.S. government to buy about $2 billion of its vaccine, or 100 million doses, guaranteeing a market, once it gets approved.


However, OWS won't likely succeed in meeting its goal of delivering 300 million doses of the vaccine by the beginning of the new year. At most, it will be able to deliver about 20 million doses.

I wouldn't say that the president "oversaw" nor "concieved" of the OWS program, but he certainly didn't seem to hinder it. either. As the old saw goes; "lead, follow, or get out of the way".

Moncef Slaoui was chief advisor, and General Gustave F. Perna was chief operating officer of Operation Warp Speed (OWS), the administration's national program to accelerate the development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, therapeutics, and diagnostics (medical countermeasures).

Dr. Slaoui is a venture capitalist and, formerly, Chairman of Global Research and Development and Chairman of Global Vaccines at GlaxoSmithKline, where he led the development of five major novel vaccines.

As the four-star general in charge of the U.S. Army Materiel Command, General Perna oversees the global supply chain and installation and materiel readiness for the U.S. Army, including more than 190,000 military, civilian, and contract employees.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

...The SV40 virus remained in the shots for years and are implicated in many of todays cancers. These are well documented facts (that they don't mention on the news). When they do release the full data from the studies, their stocks (as well as public confidence) will take a hit.

From 1955 to 1963, an estimated 10-30% of polio vaccines administered in the US were contaminated with simian virus 40 (SV40). Merck researchers, under Maurice Hilleman’s direction, detected a simian virus in the monkey kidney cells, used to grow poliovirus, for Merck’s polio vaccine. Hilleman’s finding was responsible for a shift, away from using monkeys, for tissue culture. Researchers would largely use human cells, for the next wave of vaccine development.
The simian virus SV40 has not been present, in any vaccine, since 1963.

People with cancers, who were born after 1963, when SV40 was no longer a contaminant of the polio vaccine, were found to have evidence for SV40 in their cancerous cells.
Most epidemiologic studies do not show an increased risk of cancers, in those who received polio vaccine between 1955 and 1963.
Taken together, these findings do not support the hypothesis that SV40 virus contained, in polio vaccines administered before 1963, caused cancers.

However, some researchers do suggest that there may have been an increased incidence of certain cancers, among those exposed to contaminated polio vaccine in the U.S.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Yup, makes sense to me as well. Societies that have done well in this pandemic are ones that can act collectively. They can put these multiple layers in place without drama or cries of "stolen freedoms!"

Places where individuals can act for the good of everyone, not just themselves, are doing better. Societies that are more individualistic, are doing worse. And of course, societies which politicize public health measures for short term political gain are doing the worst of all.

It seems paradoxical to us North Americans, but individual freedom and acting collectively and taking care of each other, are not necessarily a contradiction. The Nordic way is to be extremely careful with individual rights -- remember that in at least two Nordic countries lockdown by decree is not even possible constitutionally. And freedom of movement has been preserved very broadly -- girlfriends and boyfriends for example allowed to cross closed borders to see their sweethearts without any documentary proof of a relationship. Quarantine everywhere voluntary. None of the measures enforced with the force of criminal law.

And yet people obey the voluntary quarantines to a higher degree than those in other countries who fear punishment; recommendations about working from home and avoiding unnecessary contact an internal travel results in changes of behavior similar to those in countries which had lockdown.

So why indeed do we have to infringe individual rights, in order to achieve collective goals? Well, we don't. The difference is culture. And trust. People CHOOSE to do this and that, to protect each other. They don't need to be forced or punished. Maybe forcing and punishing is not the right way to go about achieving these goals? Maybe that is what drives the wedge between the collective and the individual?

[goboatingnow]

Many countries had largely voluntary lockdowns. The vast majority of Ireland Covid responses were “ advisory “ with no police enforcement powers. Mask wearing in shops and public transport was made mandatory . Business closures were not advisory. But the movement controls were largely voluntary yet most people applied them.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It seems paradoxical to us North Americans, but individual freedom and acting collectively and taking care of each other, are not necessarily a contradiction. The Nordic way is to be extremely careful with individual rights

Yes indeed. Freedom and free societies come in many different flavours. This is what some here seem to have a hard time grasping.

I'm pleased that Canada often scores with Nordic countries on many international comparators with regard to social capital measures. Societal trust being one. I think you can see this play out in how Canada has done compared to our American cousins during this whole pandemic. We have a lot of the same "freedom loving" drives up here, but we also have a higher level of social trust.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So why indeed do we have to infringe individual rights, in order to achieve collective goals? Well, we don't. The difference is culture. And trust. People CHOOSE to do this and that, to protect each other. They don't need to be forced or punished. Maybe forcing and punishing is not the right way to go about achieving these goals? Maybe that is what drives the wedge between the collective and the individual?

I agree. Societies where people trust each other to do the right thing are not trapped in a prisoner's dilemma of bad choices. But you can't create this kind of society overnight. And when you can't operate on trust, what is left? I fear force is all that remains. It's the best, worst option at that point.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I think you can see this play out in how Canada has done compared to our American cousins during this whole pandemic. We have a lot of the same "freedom loving" drives up here, but we also have a higher level of social trust.

Given the surges currently happening in Canada... I really think it's a bit too soon to be patting ourselves on the back. We also don't seem immune to the stupid that's in evidence in other countries.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Given the surges currently happening in Canada... I really think it's a bit too soon to be patting ourselves on the back. We also don't seem immune to the stupid that's in evidence in other countries.

True... we have our fair share of nutbars. But so far the numbers remain low. But time will tell. Our worst provincial numbers are still better than almost all the US states -- but this could change. As I keep reminding myself: It can always get worse.

I've jokingly suggested this is one way we could get the southern border opened. If we get as bad as the US, there'd be no reason to keep the border closed.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Many countries had largely voluntary lockdowns. The vast majority of Ireland Covid responses were “ advisory “ with no police enforcement powers. Mask wearing in shops and public transport was made mandatory . Business closures were not advisory. But the movement controls were largely voluntary yet most people applied them.

I would submit -- sign of a mature society.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

. . .I really think it's a bit too soon to be patting ourselves on the back. . .

That virus has a mind of its own, and may whack mercilessly when we least expect it. It is FAR too early for ANYONE to be patting himself on the back.


Look at Czechia, Lithuania, or, for God's sake, France -- with arguably the best public health system in the world -- and say -- "There but for the grace of God go I".