U.S. to close..

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by UFO

... If normal vaccines are so safe for everyone then why have they paid out $4.4 Billion of tax payers money in the USA in damages for them since the mid 80's, perhaps you should do some research ...
... and don't forget this is a a NEW and Experimental type of vaccine with NO similar History of testing to fall back on, yet in a matter of months they are rolling out 100's of Millions of doses with the prospect of eventually jabbing the whole planet ...

For most drugs (every type of drug other than vaccines) the manufacturer can be legally liable for harm that results from a product it sells. Vaccines are produced by privately held pharmaceutical companies, but they have a unique arrangement with the U.S. government: When a person reports harm that could feasibly be related to a vaccine, a government program (not a pharmaceutical company) pays compensation.
If the government restricts individual rights for the collective good, the reasoning went, then that government should assume responsibility for the consequences. The purpose was to compensate children who had been injured, while serving the public good.

The US ‘Vaccine Injury Compensation Program’ (VICP) has processed thousands (22,507) of vaccine injury claims over 30 years, paying out ($4.4B) billions of dollars in compensation, of which approximately 70 percent of all VICP awards come as result of a negotiated settlement between the parties, in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine(s) caused the alleged injury.
Over that 30-year time period, 19,356 petitions have been adjudicated, with 7,666 of those determined to be compensable, while 11,690 were dismissed.
According to the CDC, from 2006 to 2018 over 3.7 billion doses of covered vaccines were distributed in the U.S. For petitions filed in this time period, 7,527 petitions were adjudicated by the Court, and of those 5,270 were compensated.
This means for every 1 million doses of vaccine that were distributed, approximately 1 individual was compensated.

Working from the estimate that 70 percent of the awards are not clearly attributable to vaccines, the payments estimate a rate of injury or illness caused by vaccination at about one in 4.5 million.

The program is self-funded by a 75-cent fee (tax), collected on every shot given..

The actual headline should be that, under the current administration:
The Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP) has been designated to handle any issues with a COVID-19 vaccine, under the Public Readiness and Emergency Preparedness (PREP) Act,
not the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP)

Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) only pays the medical costs, or lost wages, that were not covered by any other program, and it does not pay anything for pain and suffering, nor legal fees.
In the past decade, 446 people filed CICP claims, 39 were approved, but only 29 received compensation. That’s because HHS says the other 10 didn’t have any medical expenses to reimburse. In all, $5.7 million has been paid out to vaccine injured through the CICP program.
Any decisions made by the CICP, are made in secret, by the Department of Health & Human Services (HHS), with no right of appeal to any court. Unlike the CICP, claims in the VICP are decided in a federal court, and have a right of appeal, up to the United States Supreme Court.
About the Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program (CICP)
CICP ➥ https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp
The PREP Act and COVID-19: Limiting Liability for Medical Countermeasures
➥ https://crsreports.congress.gov/prod...f/LSB/LSB10443

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by UFO

Sorry if big pharma are against it, it must be a load of mumbo jumbo, especially as it has not been reported in the MSM and for your part in promoting it we will be sending the inquisition around to your house within the next 10 minutes with a range of tools for straightening out your heretical behaviour

Will lock the doors!!!

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

You scaring me now sing. Like PR for the vaccine industry. (or simply brainwahed by your "education") You and lake both paid bloggers? who'd a thunk. Everyone ought know by now that there is some nefarious sht goin on in the world. Some "choose not to know". Ya'll educated. Do some research!

Indeed you are scared and are doing your best to control your fear. That's what the research shows.

Some people confronted with fear seek out new information, for uncertainty about affairs is what causes fear in the first place. Other take to magical thinking (religion, conspiracy theories, etc), others use drugs (including alcohol). Fearful people tend to group together, safety in numbers deal, supporting each other in education, or religion/conspiracy theories, or leaning on one another at the pub.

So I recognize that you're doing the best you can. But if the best you can do is yell "there's no fire" or "the alarm bell people are herding you to a cliff" in a building where there is legitimate smoke and fire, indeed society doesn't need you so long as this is the best you can muster under this precise circumstance. This is sad for people like you as invariably part of you recognizes such, which tends to lend more emotional response to fear...just exacerbating things. That's what the research shows.

[goboatingnow]

Actually we wouldn't because we would all have a natural immunity!


FYI Viruses cause other issues, perhaps you should do some research and see what the Flu, Sore Throat, Measles, German Measles etc can leave you with if you are susceptible - So stop spreading such rubbish in regards to secondary issues - It happens with all viruses, Covid is no different there.

after all the deaths of course !

I have read what Covid can leave you with and its a very nasty sitiuation that you would not visit on your worse enemy

Humans work collectively , thats the nature of their makeup , those that choose to live outside this norm, only do so at the whim of the rest of society , should the general society decide it doesnt want these people to act like like , it would very quickly force them to change ( or kill them in the end)

anti vaxxers can survive because (a) most people take vaccines and hence the disease is suppressed, secondly the health services , typically subsidized by all taxpayers, still treats those that harm themselves and (c) liberal societies takes a tolerant view of "outliers"

None of this can be taken for granted , are people going to allow non vaccinated children's to attend school and risk others ( I know control of this has been actively considered by several nations )

freedom is isnt absolute , it has limits , you cant just do what you want without suffering consequences including consequences that remove your freedom

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Gentlemen, stopping the spread of Covid is not as simplistic are some seem the think. It's not a binary issue------mask or no mask. I would have thought that most would realize how complex it is by now.

I’m reading through this thread and in my opinion there are many misconceptions.

Chief among them is to me the obvious fact that no civil measure, masks, lockdowns etc will stop the spread of Covid, it may slow its progression, but to stop it, will take a vaccine, or it burning itself out, period, and it may not burn itself out.

If we don’t get a vaccine or it doesn’t burn itself out, then it’s likely to become endemic, like for instance Polo was, or a great many other diseases that pretty much no longer exists because of vaccines.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m reading through this thread and in my opinion there are many misconceptions.

Chief among them is to me the obvious fact that no civil measure, masks, lockdowns etc will stop the spread of Covid, it may slow its progression, but to stop it, will take a vaccine, or it burning itself out, period, and it may not burn itself out.

If we don’t get a vaccine or it doesn’t burn itself out, then it’s likely to become endemic, like for instance Polo was, or a great many other diseases that pretty much no longer exists because of vaccines.

very true , but masks, bans on gatherings etc are all simply measures to reduce the spread rate , noone is delusional enough to think these measures are in themselves a " cure " , but simply becuase they arnt a cure doesn't mean they arnt useful in reducing the spread rate ( which they are )

[aqfishing]

So is the thread title...
U.S is going to close
Or
U.S is too close??? (To what???)

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

So is the thread title...
U.S is going to close
Or
U.S is too close??? (To what???)

U.S. too close again:

Originally Posted by AA3JY

..again? Remember this past spring quite a few marinas where forced/volunteered to close and entry to the US was restricted for a few weeks.
I’m afraid this may happen again in some form or another in the near future..

[Mike OReilly]

Feels like this thread is sliding down the same old black hole of conspiracy theory politics.

No, you can't just protect those especially vulnerable to this disease while letting the rest of society carry on as normal. Not unless you mean locking all the vulnerable completely off from the rest of society.

Yes, masks work, but only in conjunction with all the other well discussed means of limiting virus transmission.

Yes, we can control this disease, just like we've learned to control and eradicate others. But it requires a modicum of self-sacrifice, and a willingness to put collective needs over some of our individual needs. Some societies are better able to do this than others, as we are seeing.

So, speaking as a Canadian, at this point the U.S. is definitely too close . But given our own trajectory of increasing Covid-19 cases, we may even the score soon. At which point there's no reason for the U.S. to close .

[Dsanduril]

Because it seems to fit in the context of this current thread, and with none of my own opinion attached:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/12/h...s-stalled.html (sorry about the paywall if you’ve read too much there this month). The intro bits:

Measles deaths worldwide swelled to their highest level in 23 years last year, according to a report released Thursday, a stunning rise for a vaccine-preventable disease and one that public health experts fear could grow as the coronavirus pandemic continues to disrupt immunization and detection efforts.

The global death tally for 2019 — 207,500 — was 50 percent higher than just three years earlier, according to the analysis, released jointly by the World Health Organization and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. No measles deaths were reported in the United States, but measles cases in the country hit a record annual high of 1,282 across 31 states, the most since 1992, according to figures updated earlier this month. As recently as 2012, the U.S. case number was 55.

Public health experts said the soaring numbers are the consequence of years of insufficient vaccination coverage. They worry that the pandemic will exacerbate the spread of measles, a disease that is even more contagious than Covid-19.

WHO source with link to data/paper

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m reading through this thread and in my opinion there are many misconceptions.

Chief among them is to me the obvious fact that no civil measure, masks, lockdowns etc will stop the spread of Covid, it may slow its progression, but to stop it, will take a vaccine, or it burning itself out, period, and it may not burn itself out.

Yes... but right now we have a very different situation from early 2020:

• we know much more about how COVID-19 is spread, so we're able to be more 'precise' with measures, to minimise their harm
• we have better knowledge of treatment
• there's every indication that an effective vaccine will be widely available in the second quarter of 2021... or maybe sooner
• ... yet in most places we are facing a surge because of lowering our guard too much

So the immediate question is whether society has the stones to prevent many needless deaths and illness, and to keep healthcare functioning for everyone, over the next 4 or 5 months.

On a personal level (talking to all CFers here), would you be willing to tolerate further lockdowns and other restrictive measures between now and April, if it meant maybe 100000 to 200000 less Americans dying? (or similar in other countries and regions)

If you're a wage-slave or small business owner, this brings the risk of loss of income, and knock-on effects. If you're In the boat-owning class or better, the risk is national debt, increases in taxation, continued restrictions on movement, so that the wage-slaves and the working poor aren't harmed as much.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

You scaring me now sing. Like PR for the vaccine industry. (or simply brainwahed by your "education") You and lake both paid bloggers? who'd a thunk. Everyone ought know by now that there is some nefarious sht goin on in the world. Some "choose not to know". Ya'll educated. Do some research!

... "brainwashed by education" That's it in a nutshell, innit?

Yet 5G-boy does pay us the highest complement - that we're pros .

So...'sing'... I'm torn; should I accept the flat per-post fee, or hold out for a per-word rate?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

If I can get all strategic for a moment, we know that there's going to be a global advantage to the countries that get through the pandemic crisis faster. Reaching "herd immunity" sooner from managed spread, or through incompetence/indifference, is one way.

Getting there from a vaccine is another. Now, maybe our current western requirements for testing and confirming a vaccine contain many redundancies and bureaucratic red tape, so it's possible to get to a safe vaccine a lot faster if that is skipped. But, think about it - Announce your rushed vaccine with much fanfare, a mass inoculation program. If there's substantial immunity conferred... big win. If it's mediocre or ineffective, but at least safe... you'll see more illness than you expected. Either way, you still get through the pandemic faster.

If the Russian vaccine is genuinely effective enough, they'll get to the global market faster, and they can probably beat the prices on the Western vaccines.

It's brilliant. Dibs on the movie rights.

At current infection rates, we will never get to herd immunity. For that a Vaccine is our only hope.
We never got herd immunity for any of the diseases that people are vaccinated for, Herd immunity is actually pretty rare. Bad as Malaria is for example we aren’t even close to herd immunity for that.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by atoll

the vaccine might prove to be very effective,with few side effects,untill 9 months later when the first children start being born to vaccinated parents

Has there ever been an example of that? Drugs taken by pregnant women of course there are example of that, and one would assume a vaccine could hurt an unborn child, but has there ever been an example of what your saying?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Bullshti! You're not even close.

In the USA (for instance), the number of Covid-19 deaths is (will be this year) nearly 10 times the annual number of traffic fatalities.

According to Johns Hopkins University, The first case of COVID-19 in US was reported 295 days ago on 1/21/2020.
Since then, the country has reported 10,552,821 cases, and 242,423 deaths.
➥ https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases


USA = 249,998 deaths (11,066,546 cases)
World = 1,311,032 deaths (53,837,070 cases)
➥ https://www.worldometers.info/corona...as1?#countries



According to the U.S. Department of Transportation's Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS):
The U.S. Department of Transportation's most recent estimate (2018) of the annual economic cost of crashes is $242 billion dollars.
There were 33,654 fatal motor vehicle crashes in the United States in 2018 in which 36,560 deaths occurred.
This resulted in 11.2 deaths per 100,000 people and 1.13 deaths per 100 million miles traveled. The fatality rate per 100,000 people ranged from 4.4 in the District of Columbia to 22.2 in Mississippi. The death rate per 100 million miles traveled ranged from 0.54 in Massachusetts to 1.83 in South Carolina.

Montana had the highest estimated percentage of fatally injured drivers with blood alcohol concentrations (BACs) of 0.08 percent or higher (45 percent), and West Virginia had the lowest (12 percent).

In 2018, fatally injured occupants were approximately half as likely to have been restrained (seat belt, child car seat) compared with the nationwide average. California had the highest restraint use percentage among fatally injured occupants at 61 percent. New Hampshire had the lowest restraint use among fatally injured occupants at just 28 percent. In 2018, fatally injured occupants were approximately half as likely to have been restrained compared with the nationwide average.

In 2018, speeding was a factor in 26 percent of motor vehicle crash deaths. In 2018, the percentage of crash deaths involving speeding was higher on minor roads (30 percent) than on interstates and freeways (28 percent) or on other major roads (23 percent).

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has been grappling with a recent spike in pedestrian deaths that some attribute to more distraction and use of electronic devices. In 2018, the number of pedestrians killed rose to its highest level since 1990 climbing 3.4% to 6,283.

As reported by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) , and the Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI)
More ➥ https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality...-state#fn1ref1
And ➥ https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality...early-snapshot

NSC traffic fatality estimates are slightly higher.
The National Safety Council (NSC) estimate of total motor-vehicle deaths in the first six months of 2020 is 18,300, up 1% from the preliminary 2019 estimate of 18,200.
In 2019, an estimated 38,800 people lost their lives to car crashes – a 2% decline from 2018 (39,404 deaths) and a 4% decline from 2017 (40,231 deaths).
➥ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-ve...ary-estimates/

One has to call into question as how those Covid death numbers are derived at.
I am not saying that Covid isn’t killing people, far from it, but if someone on their death bed has respiratory complications, is that coded as a Covid death?
majority of people that die from just old age have respiratory problems, I believe Pneumonia is pretty common for people on their death bed, but for some reason those weren’t counted as Pneumonia deaths?

What would be more meaningful would be numbers of deaths from Covid of what would be normal healthy people, that died as a direct result of the Covid Virus, but I don’t believe those numbers exist do they?