Unintended consequences that effect real people.

[hpeer]

^+1. Yup.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

Not to go wild on conspiracy tangent but after 6 months of this BS gov't induced circus it's beginning to feel like someone very smart is using the virus to kill the middle class and small businesses.

I don't care what they state their official intentions are I just see the results of their policies rammed down our throats without any democratic input or even a pretended consultation.

Even our PCP does not have the right to do to us what the gov'ts are doing under the guise of "containing the spread". While doing absolutely nothing containing the underlying morbidities, etc.

While we are forced to quarantine, wear masks, socially distance, etc. not one policy outlawed fattening and high sugar foods or any other products contributing to the covid death rate. Talk about dealing with underlying issues before dealing with superficial ones.

I often think along those lines, alcohol, tabacoo, sugar etc, create massive health related issues, social and economic issues, real killers.....nothing to see here?

I've had two friends that own businesses ring me recently and say the same thing, "I hate to go down the conspiracy path BUT it's hard not to ask the question due to this madness"

[Tillsbury]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Paul, once again I'm not advocating a denial strategy, never was, it's time to rethink, the strategy eg. as mentioned before the New Zealand elimination strategy didnt work, it came back anyway, yes small numbers but I'd argue theres a number of factors in play that are keeping numbers small, not just government policy.

I'd suggest being a little more careful about which chap you listen to when you get your news. The NZ elimination strategy by no means "didn't work". When there are borders open, even with isolation and quarantine, there are high risk areas. The elimination strategy expects that there will be occasional outbreaks. NZers had become a little complacent, and the outbreak two weeks ago was larger than expected, but seems to have been quickly contained. Everyone is on heightened alert (and mass gatherings are cancelled), and Auckland is on mid-level restrictions for two weeks to allow the contact tracing to be completed. A cluster of 93 cases so far (including the one more found yesterday) appears to be the majority of the extent, and it's looking very likely that the resurgence strategy worked well and the country will go back to near-normal this week and completely normal (including mass gatherings) a couple of weeks later.

Having had this one outbreak means that everyone is likely to be a little more careful with contact recording in the future, and has certainly increased the security at the border with many new procedures. Testing at the peak was running at 0.5% of the population per day.

The challenge was to see whether this instant response (announced within 6 hours and implemented nationwide within 24 hours of the positive test result being confirmed) would isolate this outbreak and allow the country to get back to normal very quickly, unlike what happened in Melbourne which has resulted in many weeks of serious disruption and no immediate end in sight. It is looking like it has done so.

No elimination strategy can guarantee to remove the virus when it still exists globally. Hence you need a resurgence strategy, including care at high risk locations, and the best possible contact tracing and testing.

[wolfgal]

am a bit worried too...

from what i can tell, the EU's mutualisation-bond deal may be puttering out, so i am anticipating Barnie's observations from his edge of the EU to spread across the board in the nearing months. France is flat-lining already, it seems.

the collateral damage to europe may be tremendous. it is too early to know.



and yes, the stock market FAANGS are huge winners on three levels:
-QE "flows" are flooding them
-their business have thrived during the homebody/work-from-home/lock-up time
-the robinhood app has allowed the millennials and the FOMOs to pile in

the fed's QE is a crutch to the stock market ... or else, oh dear... from what i can tell, the Fed is trying to prevent systemic collapse. from my angle, i see how the Fed HAS to print to save the system.

in the process, the companies that SHOULD go bust stay in the system, buybacks persist, while the rich get richer; and this, while the small businesses and "we the people" slip into combo-cocktail of depression/social unrest/poverty.

but what scares me is how things could easily get worse...

i see it like this: the virus has the globe caught between a rock and a hard place and leaves us very few, very hard choices:

1) there is the shutdown option, which could potentially strangle the virus, but which represents a huge blow to the economy (short but with hope of recovery). the thing is, as the virus travels from continent to continent, perhaps traveling on imports, then we are always in fear-mode for resurgences. a whole in the mozzie screen...

2) then there are less radical approaches that involve high-level, social responsibility: masks, hand-washing, avoiding touching, formation of small groups of people together, etc. yes, we still have fear-mode for resurgences...

both of these approaches do not create a whole lot of herding AND has us waiting on a vaccine... or Godot.

3) let it tear through à la Darwin so to allow natural herding to happen. followed by a moment when we mourn our loved ones and our losses.



the problem with the second option (my preferred) boils down to TRUST.
who really trusts their governments anymore?
who really trusts their politicians anymore?
who really trusts their banks anymore?
who really trusts government issued crypto currencies, negative interest rates, personal freedoms disappearing, tracking... (a long list)?
and who can trust the perfectly innocent looking guy standing in line at the grocery store who gives out a little cough?

for me, trust on many levels needs to be restored. this is fundamental to the concept of humanity and is the very space in which recovery starts.

this could be true..., yet i think we need to acknowledge how precarious the overall situation is:
-natural disasters lingering on too many doorsteps, some major
-lack of natural resources
-profound wealth gap
-lack of education/dumbing down of populations
-automation (AI) that take jobs from people

oh dear...

yes, yes, this girl needs to go sailing again...

[jmschmidt]

If you are referring to the "idiot we have in WA" meaning Washington State I agree. If you are referring to the Federal Government please read the Constitution. The United States Government has only two constitutional duties: National Defense and maintaining the Rule of Law. Read the 10th Amendment. Everything else is left up "to the States or to the people." The Federal Government has absolutely authority to babysit every idiot governor and mayor that ignorant people vote into office. OK sensors bleep this out.

[barnakiel]

I disagree with that person being an idiot. He is a very smart person, with huge emotional intelligence and skills. Otherwise he would not be where he is.


Many people underestimate and belittle because this is how we handle anxiety and fear.


Know thyselves.



barnakiel

[hpeer]

Wolf girl,

Re:#2

I am NOT a conspiracy kinda guy, yet what I see is that this virus is seriously eroding our trust in one another. On a primal level putting on a mask is a way of hiding who you are which devolves trust pretty deeply. Wearing masks is a great way to erode trust in your daily interactions.

Now also we know that there are small groups of people who are at much higher risk than society in general. The logical thing to do would be to make a major effort to protect these at risk people; over 80, over weight, hyper tension, diabetes, long term care facility living. It seems like a no brained that we should concentrate on them.

But we have taken very broad brush tools; shutting the economy, social distancing, masks. None of these seem to be effective compare to supporting separation in nursing homes, supporting additional care givers, providing care givers quarantine housing so they don’t have to go home, giving them additional vacation for their efforts when they do get off, extensive and frequent testing of ALL LTC employees, etc.

I don’t get it.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by jmschmidt

If you are referring to the "idiot we have in WA" meaning Washington State I agree. If you are referring to the Federal Government please read the Constitution. The United States Government has only two constitutional duties: National Defense and maintaining the Rule of Law. Read the 10th Amendment. Everything else is left up "to the States or to the people." The Federal Government has absolutely authority to babysit every idiot governor and mayor that ignorant people vote into office. OK sensors bleep this out.

This is very important to understand. It’s important to know who is and is not largely responsible for our health, behind our own personal responsibility.

Trump is not empowered to take charge of our health. He has some federal resources.

The Governors ARE. They make decisions about what is right for their state. Remember that New Jersey and Sweden are about the same population.

Como made disastrous policy mistakes that killed thousands. Pretty directly.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinio...-s-ncna1237085

[barnakiel]

barnakiel

[atoll]

we are all saved Trump has another miracle cure!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwJIRiShmPY

[wolfgal]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Wolf girl,

Re:#2

Wearing masks is a great way to erode trust in your daily interactions.

Now also we know that there are small groups of people who are at much higher risk than society in general. The logical thing to do would be to make a major effort to protect these at risk people; over 80, over weight, hyper tension, diabetes, long term care facility living. It seems like a no brained that we should concentrate on them.

But we have taken very broad brush tools; shutting the economy, social distancing, masks. None of these seem to be effective compare to supporting separation in nursing homes, supporting additional care givers, providing care givers quarantine housing so they don’t have to go home, giving them additional vacation for their efforts when they do get off, extensive and frequent testing of ALL LTC employees, etc.

I don’t get it.

great points!

yes, the face-covering increases the fear thing. i am very aware of how unsettling it is not being able to do the you're-ok/i'm-ok thing with a simple smile. just imagine how cold the world must look from a baby's perspective! this cannot be healthy... i've seen a new mask that shows the mouth (plastic sewn in). might be an improvement for many.

as for your second point:

yes, most agree that we have a duty to protect those who could easily lose their lives to covid. there are the older folks, those with major health concerns... yet for others, it is an opportunity to learn how to take better care of themselves, to become more fit physically, emotionally, etc. i do hope that many countries take note of the UK's campaign against obesity... eating a healthy diet (organic food could become a norm again), and we do need to be outdoors and exercise

you spur a very good question:
do we really need to shut down the economy so to protect those who are fragile?

to me, it is unfathomable how so many good folk who were deemed "unessential" now face bankruptcy and even homelessness.

i've been wondering what would be the outcome if able-bodied-n-willing folks were able to keep working, while wearing masks and doing all the social responsibility bit... AND if these folks got a RAISE in wages, in salary, were rewarded for their efforts.

what i see is how the work would be valued. these folks would set the standard for a WORK ETHIC moving forward (as opposed to having to chase the stock market, take more and more risks so to pay for their retirement!). it would be a way to value folks who have healthier, more resilient lifestyles too.

another outcome, potentially: those working folks with wage increases could, in turn, spend and provide some "velocity of money" to keep the economy going.

does anything ever trickle down?



thoughts?

[JPA Cate]

[THREAD CLOSED. CF Community Rules prohibit political discussion not related to cruising or sailing.