Unintended consequences that effect real people.

[daletournier]

I'm not sure if this is cruising related enough, but I'm cruising and I'm seeing economic destruction therefore I figure it's related enough.

I dont want to make judgment on if shutdowns were necessary or not BUT I do believe that theres been far to many broad strokes without enough thoughtful consideration, below I believe is one if those.

I met Chris at Christmas island 4 years back when I pulled in on Sukha, it fact he met us! My partner was in the local super market and out of the blue this young guy came upto her and said "are you on the yacht", I'm Chris if you need any help let me know, do you need your laundry done", it's not like this guy had nothing to do, hes just an impressive young man, the world needs more of him. At the time he was trying to get his business of the ground.

As someone that has worked for himself for many years I 100% understand what it takes to build a successful business in regards to effort, risk and battles with bureaucracy it sadens me to see business people suffer so much while the bureaucrats that have guaranteed income decide their fate.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15uM...ifE1OpUh7/view

I hope the link works, not to skilled in this area.

Btw, the real economy, millions of businesses are getting killed, I'm seeing it here in Fiji right now.

[UFO]

Yep Video works - It's very well put together.


It also sums up the Idiot we have in charge here in WA - These politicians need prosecuting for what they are doing.

[Paul L]

Dale,
Are you concerned about the attempts to deal with the virus or the effects of the virus. It is pretty easy to take shots at the attempts to solve the problem without proposing any better solutions. Would you rather see Australia have infection rates like the US? That would be pretty easy to make happen. And when you do, it doesn't help small businesses one bit. Whatever complaints you have against the government virus response doesn't change the fact there is a very infectious virus on the move.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Dale,
Are you concerned about the attempts to deal with the virus or the effects of the virus. It is pretty easy to take shots at the attempts to solve the problem without proposing any better solutions. Would you rather see Australia have infection rates like the US? That would be pretty easy to make happen. And when you do, it doesn't help small businesses one bit. Whatever complaints you have against the government virus response doesn't change the fact there is a very infectious virus on the move.

Hi Paul, we often agree on things but I think we might disagree here. Hmmm, suggesting we do what the US have done? Never said that.

Easy to sit back and judge? Yes it is and they need to be judged, it they don't want to be judged then dont run for public office, have the courage to be judged or get out.

I'm suggesting that one rule dosent fit all, there's some very lazy bureaucracy happening. Are you keeping upto date regarding Australia boarder closures? how much have you looked into it? there is some really silly stuff happening there and the suggestions that some of it can be contributed to political posturing due to elections coming up seems to have some merit, trying to show they are strong leaders.
Is it an easy job? no of course not BUT that's irrelevant.

There has to be a balance between actions taken regarding covid spread and the economy, the health problems that will come due to economic collapse are very real.

And by the way, it's easy to say do you have a solution! I dont have to have a solution, that's not my job, my job is to hold the government to account, they are the ones that need to come up with solutions. When your pay packet is secure and your not individually held accountable it's easy to not try hard, I've seen this first hand.

[Island Time O25]

Basically the way politicians dealt with this virus is like swinging a hammer at a fly. Even if you think that this particular fly carries a nasty disease a hammer will always be not only an overkill but also very pricey and very destructive way to kill a fly.

We are witnessing a much deeper crisis - lack of good governance. This goes well beyond the response to covid. Too many interest groups representing too few slices of very influential segments of society were allowed in the past 30-40 years to dictate not just some laws here and there but the whole new direction of our political future. And all parties at the table are to blame, none have withstood the onslaught of big money in politics. None have the average Joe's interest in their heart. Only to stay in power, courtesy of big money donors and power brokers. The virus exposed all of them as fakes and frauds.

The right and moral thing to do for a politician showing good governance skills in a situation where quarantine was truly necessary would have been to have everyone be in the same boat i.e. to cut their salaries and salaries of all gov't employees by same % and for the same duration as the rest of us. Then and only then I could believe that which comes out of their lying mouths.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Dale,
Are you concerned about the attempts to deal with the virus or the effects of the virus. It is pretty easy to take shots at the attempts to solve the problem without proposing any better solutions. Would you rather see Australia have infection rates like the US? That would be pretty easy to make happen. And when you do, it doesn't help small businesses one bit. Whatever complaints you have against the government virus response doesn't change the fact there is a very infectious virus on the move.

Sorry Paul, I also meant to add, yes I've read alot on the virus and that includes its RO value, in fact I would suggest I was reading about it early than most, BUT I'm absolutely no expert on the subject BUT I also understand that theres alot of disagreement when it comes to the virus, I understand where the skeptical view is coming from not that I necessarily agree with.

Theres been different ways of handling this around the world, I'm not suggesting Australia has done a terrible job, I'm also not agreeing that we have relatively low cases due to good governance, what I am saying is that theres not enough thought being put into the economic damage being done and the long term effects and I believe this is because government is more worried about pleasing the electorate than making unpopular decisions. We lack leadership, we have poor managers.

It's easy to health is more important than the economy, that feels good, right? the reality is they are very intertwined.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Sorry Paul, I also meant to add, yes I've read alot on the virus and that includes its RO value, in fact I would suggest I was reading about it early than most, BUT I'm absolutely no expert on the subject BUT I also understand that theres alot of disagreement when it comes to the virus, I understand where the skeptical view is coming from not that I necessarily agree with.

Theres been different ways of handling this around the world, I'm not suggesting Australia has done a terrible job, I'm also not agreeing that we have relatively low cases due to good governance, what I am saying is that theres not enough thought being put into the economic damage being done and the long term effects and I believe this is because government is more worried about pleasing the electorate than making unpopular decisions. We lack leadership, we have poor managers.

It's easy to health is more important than the economy, that feels good, right? the reality is they are very intertwined.

Sure it is easy to say health is more important than the economy. It is also easy to wish the economy is good while the health continues to decline. You aren't going to save the small, independent gym by ignoring the fact that a virus is running rampant. Just let them open is not an effective policy.
It's easy to ignore the fact that a cyclone is coming. But it doesn't change the fact that it is out there.

[Mastermuffin]

i remember watching them do the northwest passage on youtube, a great series for anyone interested.



https://www.youtube.com/user/wwwYachtTeleportCom/videos

[Yihang]

I feel Australia is still at a stage where options can be explored. It's still under control so to speak. I think it's better to overeact at first while figuring out the next steps so we keep all options open. If things get out of hand then our options become much more limited.

In the other thread a lot of good precedent have been been given regarding countries that are living somewhat successfully with the virus. Contact tracing and self policing is important.

I have to admit I have only experienced mandatory shutdowns of 2 weeks.

[zboss]

Closing down society has been the plan for a serious outbreak since maybe the 1960's - maybe earlier so its no surprise that businesses were told to close. Everyone knew this could happen and its actually something you can plan for. The government planned for it but businesses failed to do so. Instead they took out massive debt. If they weren't so leveraged then there wouldn't be an issue. They leveraged property, consumables, capital goods...

Things are never going back to normal so businesses - big and small - are simply going to have to adjust.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Sure it is easy to say health is more important than the economy. It is also easy to wish the economy is good while the health continues to decline. You aren't going to save the small, independent gym by ignoring the fact that a virus is running rampant. Just let them open is not an effective policy.
It's easy to ignore the fact that a cyclone is coming. But it doesn't change the fact that it is out there.

Paul, I'm not talking about one individual business, in fact the original example was xmas island not the gym, please explain the lodgic behind the xmas island travel restrictions? I'm not saying let it RIP, never did BUT IMO theres some serious overkill, ie shutting the Qld border, have a look at the numbers.

How long do we close down? Do we close down everytime we get 2-3 cases? Do we just hand out money indefinitely, New Zealand pretty well proved elimination dosent work.

We have to manage both, its important. Many seem to be ignoring the economic data, the virus numbers are reported repeatedly daily yet the economic numbers are hardly mentioned. Small to medium business are the real economy not the stock market.

Not only is it my right to criticize aspects of the handling of this in Australia, it's my duty, it's not a dictatorship it's a democracy, we have a say and governments need to be held accountable.

Is there any other country that wont let their citizens fly out of the country? Is there any other country talking about mandatory vaccine injections? this concerns me.

I couldn't even get a marina price list from private marina yesterday without consulting gold coast maritime, a government agency?

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I feel Australia is still at a stage where options can be explored. It's still under control so to speak. I think it's better to overeact at first while figuring out the next steps so we keep all options open. If things get out of hand then our options become much more limited.

In the other thread a lot of good precedent have been been given regarding countries that are living somewhat successfully with the virus. Contact tracing and self policing is important.

I have to admit I have only experienced mandatory shutdowns of 2 weeks.

Yes, we can look at options regarding living with the virus, some countries are succeeding in this area, we are in a position to explore this path, I believe we have to.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by zboss

Closing down society has been the plan for a serious outbreak since maybe the 1960's - maybe earlier so its no surprise that businesses were told to close. Everyone knew this could happen and its actually something you can plan for. The government planned for it but businesses failed to do so. Instead they took out massive debt. If they weren't so leveraged then there wouldn't be an issue. They leveraged property, consumables, capital goods...

Things are never going back to normal so businesses - big and small - are simply going to have to adjust.

Have you had or do you have a business, hard to compete today without debt, consumer expectations are huge, nice coffee isnt enough, a 250k fitout is expected as well. What do think it cost Chris in that link to setup his tourist accommodation, do you really think he could of saved up all that and started with no debt?

It's like saying you should buy a house out right with no debt.

[UFO]

For those of you that think that this Virus is going to magically go away or that the Vaccine will solve the problem, you are living in Lah Lah Land.



The original lock downs etc were supposed to be put in place to Flatten the curve, so that the medical profession could cope with the cases, eradication is an absolutely ludicrous idea that has 0% chance of working, yet they are busily trying to achieve that magical unicorn of an outcome in Australia (especially WA), which is having the effect of destroying Livelihoods, Businesses and communities, as well as creating a Public debt that will take generations to pay off - Lets not get into the printing of money and the issuing of bonds, because that is a serious can of worms.


It has been shown around the world that as soon as the lockdowns etc are eased/removed it flares up again - As I said It is not going to magically disappear, so what are the Australian Government/Governors trying to achieve, with the exception of Huge Unemployment and Debt? As we will have to pay the piper at some point.



Anyone who keeps an eye on the UK media (not the rags) will know that they are all slamming the UK Government (who took a much more lax approach than Australia) for bungling their response - Should have been stricter you think - NO the opposite, they are all writing glowing reports about Sweden who did things Very differently than anyone else and are now reaping the rewards with a CURRENT Minimal death/infection rate and an economy that did not get totally destroyed.

[ahun]

Northern Territory is the first state to have an election since governments had to handle the crisis. It looks like people voted in favour of the strict ways. Labor is re-elected.