Vaccine Hesitancy and the Pandemic

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Do we know that? I don't think we do. "Lots of money" is never enough, where a truly massive program like this is concerned.

Seems funding is still lacking at the state level for distribution. Although how the extra money generated by 'full fee' customers will be used is anyone's guess.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/27/stat...lls-short.html

[SeanPatrick]

I'm all for vaccines. Anyone who is totally anti-vaccine is - IMHO - "misguided" ... shall we say? And I think there is ample scientific evidence freely available to anyone who cares to devote even a few seconds to looking for it which supports my position.



But (and you knew that was coming), I also think that it is folly to believe wholeheartedly that a vaccine - or any drug, "supplement" or whatever - developed so quickly and without any long term studies of side effects and negative interactions is in any way some sort of "no-brainer".


I think there is also ample evidence for that position. (*cough* Thalidomide *cough*)

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Tell that to the universities. Full fee gets you in even if your scores are not high enough for HECS places. Only country I know with that policy.

Not that university grads make more than a good tradie in aus due to controlled immigration.

Thats because most of their degrees are in areas that have no worth in the real world.

I recall reading many many years ago in The Economist ( so it must be true) a piece about S Korea v Venezuala...

Ven .. rich in resources
Korea .. light on resources

Ven.. stuffed economy
Korea .. good economy

Ven.. lots of university degrees
Korea... lots of qualified tradesmen

Back in 'Straya...

its all about the vibe.... Swinbourne Tech is now Swinbourne University

And we should not be letting foreign students back in just now just because the head bananas in the universities ( most of which are just money machines ) $1 million salaries are under threat....

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Thats because most of their degrees are in areas that have no worth in the real world.

I recall reading many many years ago in The Economist ( so it must be true) a piece about S Korea v Venezuala...

Ven .. rich in resources
Korea .. light on resources

Ven.. stuffed economy
Korea .. good economy

Ven.. lots of university degrees
Korea... lots of qualified tradesmen

Back in 'Straya...

its all about the vibe.... Swinbourne Tech is now Swinbourne University

And we should not be letting foreign students back in just now just because the head bananas in the universities ( most of which are just money machines ) $1 million salaries are under threat....

Full fee is available for everything except medicine in some places. So all the engineering and law degrees.

And it's only for Australian students with money. International students have their own loops and money traps to go through.

EDIT: Actually maybe it has been phased out since 2009 by Julia Gillard, not too sure. If true then that's a good step forward.

[GordMay]

I value the ability to access healthcare, based on need and benefit (personal & societal), and not on ability to pay*; hence, support the universal application of vaccine prioritization.
Fairness, equity, and efficacy must underlie the delivery of (so far) limited vaccine delivery.
“Line jumping” should be severely restricted to those, very few, who can demonstrate confidence, and encourage public acceptance.
I think the economic counter-argument is trivial.

* According to section 12, of the Canadian Health Act, “insured persons must have reasonable and uniform access to insured health services, free of financial or other barriers."
➥ https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/hc...-ar-ra-eng.pdf

[Quebramar]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I value the ability to access healthcare, based on need and benefit (personal & societal), and not on ability to pay*; hence, support the universal application of vaccine prioritization.

Ethics are different for every person. I am very proud that management at my company have decided to go with what authorities will decide, so not diverting part of the production to co-workers (some were insisting much, as you can imagine, seeing the vials going through the production line as we started producing before the approval got granted).

What strikes me a bit is that there are multiple approaches, some countries placing eg healthcare workers first, others senior people (in elderly homes). Defining who gets in the queue must be a political call pushed in the back by various lobbies, as many things in life. Time will eliminate the queue eventually.

Public (society as a whole) interest should in my view be the goal yet there are multiple ways to ensure it. Particular interests should be disregarded if they do not accrue to the greater one, I think. Money considerations should be in collecting funds rather than in pleasing the happy few who would get even richer as their business gets freed up from travel ban or other constraints. As such, this disease could be pivotal to society choices - or not.

[Knotical]

There are vaccines to protect yourself and there are vaccines to protect yourself and others, this one falls in the latter category. If the science is supportive of the vaccine without major side effects one should take it. This virus has killed over a million and ripped our lives apart, there is no better time to be a world citizen and play our part.

Btw, I am a frontline healthcare worker and got my first shot last week.

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Tell that to the universities. Full fee gets you in even if your scores are not high enough for HECS places. Only country I know with that policy.

Not that university grads make more than a good tradie in aus due to controlled immigration.

I get where your suggestion is coming from, but not only would the "optics" be terrible, but think about the effort, bureaucracy, processing mechanisms and so forth that would need to be set up to handle this, and probably some changes in law as well.

The transaction costs would well exceed the $3k/dose. Lets say the price goes to $10k/dose. Then who's buying it?

I'm a 2MM, titanium elite, ambassador level type traveler (until March lol), and I wouldn't shell out $10k for it, and I'm itching to get back on the road.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

"People" like Pence, Graham, Rubio and other vile pieces of human excrement certainly are.

And Nancy Pelosi?

I actually think that such people should be vaccinated as soon as possible (not before front-line health care workers), but prominently, on live TV if possible, as an EXAMPLE to other people. Remember we are dealing with a high level of vaccine hesitancy.

Also the CEO of Pfizer, Dr. Fauci, etc. etc. The value of the public SEEING these people being vaccinated is huge.

But not just as an example -- we also have a strong public interest in the political leadership of the country NOT being incapacitated by disease in the middle of a crisis. Can you imagine who much worse this would be if you had half of Congress in the hospital, for example? So pretty high on my list would be, in any case, vaccinating the entire political leadership of the country, including Congress, the cabinet, the Supreme Court, and key staff members. That is a very small number of people as a % of the population so very little effect on speed of distribution to others, but very bad consequences in case they all get sick. In a crisis the last thing we need is something like that.

[Jason Flare]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And Nancy Pelosi?


I actually think that such people should be vaccinated as soon as possible (not before front-line health care workers), but prominently, on live TV if possible, as an EXAMPLE to other people. Remember we are dealing with a high level of vaccine hesitancy.


Also the CEO of Pfizer, Dr. Fauci. The value of the public SEEING these people being vaccinated is huge.

Um, I don’t trust the elites enough to believe they would actually be getting the vaccine.

The elites haven’t taken this pandemic seriously enough to follow their own mandates.

[flightlead404]

Pelosi is in her 80's so an at risk person, and wasn't a virus denier, blocking protective measures, blocking assistance for others etc etc

so no, I don't put her in the same bucket. But I don't disagree with your other points.

Depends which half of congress is in hospital lol

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And Nancy Pelosi?

I actually think that such people should be vaccinated as soon as possible (not before front-line health care workers), but prominently, on live TV if possible, as an EXAMPLE to other people. Remember we are dealing with a high level of vaccine hesitancy.

Also the CEO of Pfizer, Dr. Fauci, etc. etc. The value of the public SEEING these people being vaccinated is huge.

But not just as an example -- we also have a strong public interest in the political leadership of the country NOT being incapacitated by disease in the middle of a crisis. Can you imagine who much worse this would be if you had half of Congress in the hospital, for example? So pretty high on my list would be, in any case, vaccinating the entire political leadership of the country, including Congress, the cabinet, the Supreme Court, and key staff members. That is a very small number of people as a % of the population so very little effect on speed of distribution to others, but very bad consequences in case they all get sick. In a crisis the last thing we need is something like that.

[mjgill1]

Just in case.
Most folks have no idea this exists or when it came into being, but here it is in case you need it. It may be a day, a week, a year or the next generation of children, (think DES). Hopefully never. The fund has settled many thousands of cases and paid out over 4 Billion to folks injured by diverse vaccines over the years. https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/index.html

This is for U.S. citizens.

[Thumbs Up]

Canada has a Vaccine Injury Support Program too now. Just in time for the COVID shots!
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal...t-program.html

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As of this month, people are finally getting vaccines against the Coronavirus. This is fantastic news -- finally light at the end of the tunnel for this ghastly pandemic. A huge, heroic achievement of the pharma industry, global cooperation, public-private partnership to go from pandemic start to actually distributing an effective vaccine, in less than a year.

But now we have a different problem. It turns out that a surprising number of people around the world are reluctant to vaccinate themselves or their families. If we don't get a certain proportion of people immune, there will be no herd immunity, and we can't stop the pandemic.

The number one country in the world for vaccine hesitancy in the world right now is, of all places, FRANCE, the very home of Louis Pasteur, with fully 33% skeptical of vaccine safety as of 2018, and fully 61% (!!!) saying that they would not take a COVID vaccine in a recent poll (https://www.cnews.fr/france/2020-12-...iner-contre-le). This is an extremely serious problem. France will hardly make a dent in the pandemic inside France if only 39% are willing to be vaccinated. This is an extremely serious problem.

I'm astonished at the level of vaccine hesitancy around the world:

Attachment 229155
https://fr.weforum.org/press/2020/09...ent-suffisant/

The fact that these vaccines are 90% to 95% effective helps a lot in getting us to herd immunity with fewer people vaccinated, but if anything like these numbers of people refuse to take the vaccine, we are in big trouble.

Given the poor performance of the testing program, ie. numerous false positives, you can't really blame people for not wanting to be first in line. I think I'll see how the first wave fares before lining up.

[alansmith]

Can you imagine what your chances of getting vaccinated are in Bangladesh as a mother of four? All of this hubris is a first world order problem. Try explaining this to old men and women in Bombay slums. We are so blessed in so many ways to live our lives with such problems. Think Mother Theresa treating the severely diseased warrants of her impoverished hospital thought of herself before others?

As for Nancy Pelosi and other leadership I agree that stability of govt is important. Pelosi lost me when she locked down San Francisco and then went and got her own private hair appointment. Big scandal in Bay Area. But I’m sure many of the Elitist suffer this syndrome. “ do as I say... not as I do!”

It is the second shot that many people are waiting to see what the effects are. Many people want to see what the side effects are when this is mass scale vaccinations. Can anyone blame them for that? My daughter is a RN in LA. She said almost 50% of the ER nurses and ICU are refusing the vaccine. Why? Because they were already infected. Another shocking point? She told me, and I have 44 years working in the hospitals and Master’s level Microbiology, that they are so desperate for staff that they allow health care workers to come to work if they are asymptomatic.... even.... even... if they are cohabitating with a Covid positive patient. Did you get that? Come to work even if your husband or child is sick with Covid. As long as you are not showing signs come to work. SURREAL!!!! Chew on that for a minute.
In San Carlos Mexico, where I store my boat, my go to guy Mexican , who went to Harvard U, has had three of his relatives die in the last six months. You think you have worries? Go to Costco in the Bay Area ... there is literally a thousand people in them. All masked up... but still.