Boat Seized in Spain by Police

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

"...There are toooooo many persons living in a boat in spain and any problem but they are into the law, it is simply..."

Do not worry, I am leaving soon. Good luck with your economy (which is based on visitors). I believe Spain has about 12% non-Spanish residents/immigrants. Are all of them "tooooo many", or only the sailors?

I am very sorry to state bluntly that the Spanish requirements (as per goboatingnow) are STUPID and a boat that is OK with registration/TAX issues in any EU country should be free to stay in ANY EU state indefinitely, no matter what the tax residence of the owner is, as long as they are EU too.

Otherwise why have the EU? To tax us again and again and again?

So much for freedom to move and reside in the EU.

b.

Well, it's very bad that Spain taxes boats at all. The U.K. does not (sort of like beer in Germany and guns in the U.S. -- your sacred right and all that).

But their system is not stupid at all, once it has been decided to tax boats. It is the law just about everywhere in the world, that once you are physically present for more than half the year (say 180 days) in a country, you start to get taxed like the locals. The locals pay taxes on their boats, so you do too, if you become a "local" for tax purposes.

Have you filed an income tax return in Spain, by the way? You may have lots of problems, besides the boat. You became a Spanish tax resident just like a Spaniard would have become a Belgian tax resident by hanging out in Belgium for more than half a year. There are lots, and lots of consequences of that.

You really did just screw up, and you are just in denial about it, fuming about their "stupid laws" and so forth. I would not be surprised if that attitude made things worse for you there.

[idpnd]

Originally Posted by jojecas

i am spanish, i live in spain, but i dont understand because if you are belgian (belgian consulat) and the boat is with belgian flag no limits to stay in spain, different is if you dont are citizens of countries signed schengen or the boat are different flag. In spain and in the eu, and all countries around the world are regulations for stay more than 6 months in a year. There are toooooo many persons living in a boat in spain and any problem but they are into the law, it is simply.
regards

You want to check up on the facts matey, try noonsite. An EU citizen having the permanent place of residence (definition varies) in another EU country becomes liable to taxation after a while. Hence the boat luxury tax applies as though one is purchasing or importing the boat.

[osirissail]

If you think of the EU as sort of "United States (old definition of 'state' is 'country') of Europe" you can see a close parallel with other "multi-state" countries. Federal level government has overall jurisdiction but the individual "states" have local jurisdiction and have to pay for all the local requirements of its population. If you stay in a "State" for a significant continuous period of time which can vary from 3 months to 6 months - rarely longer - you need to contribute to paying the costs of the local infrastructure. That means local taxes, be it on a boat or house or personal income.

[KEKKUL]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Ignoring the bigger political questions, you have to remember that the EU ( at this stage of its evolution) does not have harmonised tax systems. This is being discussed, but individual countries are loath to allow this as it can cause huge upsets to their political systems if tax systems change radically.

SO for now!, you have to abide by each countries tax laws, this is the same in every country in the world.

The EU does allow its "citizens" to freely move,live and work in all the member states, however you must abide by thoses countries laws and that includes their tax laws. In spain, after 180 days residence you "can" become a tax resident of that country and hence you pay taxes on you possesions and income that derives from spain, this includes a boat tax.

End of story. Sure leave spain, the alternative is that you want the right to be a spainish tax dodger.!!

PS. just to be clear Again, An EU boat can stay forever in spain, without attracting taxes, its the person that cant.

I am italian and live in Holland, and even me if move to Spain with a boat i have to pay spanish tax after 180 days and make temporary importation, is it normal in this great confusion, EU under TAX-politically system is good "food" for a layers, advocat companies etc etc.....BUT i have one question to a friendly forummers, i want buy a sailing boat in U.S.A. and sailing in Caribbean, can keep a American Flag? I trust Nor'Sea 27 right now! And i'ld like to register the boat in Delaware
Fair wind

[Roaring Girl]

Originally Posted by osirissail

If you think of the EU as sort of "United States (old definition of 'state' is 'country') of Europe" you can see a close parallel with other "multi-state" countries. Federal level government has overall jurisdiction but the individual "states" have local jurisdiction and have to pay for all the local requirements of its population. If you stay in a "State" for a significant continuous period of time which can vary from 3 months to 6 months - rarely longer - you need to contribute to paying the costs of the local infrastructure. That means local taxes, be it on a boat or house or personal income.

Of course this is a highly political statement here: there are many people very determined to oppose any concept of a 'federal' Europe, or a United States of Europe. The different countries have a very long and contentious history and some (such as Italy and Slovenia) have only existed as nation states for a relatively short time.

But the importance of contributing to local infrastructure and the rights of individual countries to determine liability and quantum of taxation is currently correct as you describe.

[boatman61]

Be careful mate if you get too stroppy or refuse to pay they'll just put the boat up for auction and it'll end up going to some officials 'mate' at a price just about the cost of the fine and taxes...if your lucky. One thing I learnt cruising the Med was keep on the move and change country's every so often... if you like a place you can always go back there.... this is where Gib is so handy... a leisurely sail, a couple oh weeks stocking up on luxury goods that are hard to find elsewhere... then back you go with a clean bill of health.
I nearly came unstuck in Portugal when I overstayed by a month... luckily I had Portuguese friends who came down with me and the situation was resolved amicably and for less than 50 euro I became a Portuguese Resident..... Registering the boat after inspection by the Policia Maritimo for offshore sailing came to less than 250 euro.... the inspection was basic, adequate safety gear... life jackets, flares etc for four people sound hull and steering gear... checked externally on the slip at low water....
The trouble with saving pennies is it can end up loosing you pounds.
and bluster and trying to intimidate is a waste of time.... a friend in Andratx, Mallorca lost his boat for six months and spent a fortune after someone he insulted slapped a 'Denuncia' on him... he was doing the odd "Harbour Cruise".. no one cared while he behaved but he got cocky and abused the wrong guy.... suddenly he was at the bottom of the pan with people queuing up to squat on top....
Sorry guys I really feel for you....
Phil

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by KEKKUL

I am italian and live in Holland ..... BUT i have one question to a friendly forummers, i want buy a sailing boat in U.S.A. and sailing in Caribbean, can keep a American Flag? I trust Nor'Sea 27 right now! And i'ld like to register the boat in Delaware
Fair wind

You can buy and own a boat in a State (e.g. Delaware) of the USA - but - unless you have a USA Passport (citizen or Legal Permananet Resident) you cannot get a USCG Documentation Certificate (Federal/National level documentation/papers). You can get a Delaware boat registration for the boat. That will entitle you to use the boat within US waters but is not normally acceptable for foreign countries after you leave the US territorial waters. Most countries want to see a "National/country" documentation papers.
- - Theoretically the USA Flag is only flown on USA vessels which would mean USA Federal/National documentation. I do not think anybody would think twice about your flying the flag as the boat would be Delaware registered.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, it's very bad that Spain taxes boats at all. The U.K. does not (sort of like beer in Germany and guns in the U.S. -- your sacred right and all that).

But their system is not stupid at all, once it has been decided to tax boats. It is the law just about everywhere in the world, that once you are physically present for more than half the year (say 180 days) in a country, you start to get taxed like the locals. The locals pay taxes on their boats, so you do too, if you become a "local" for tax purposes.

Have you filed an income tax return in Spain, by the way? You may have lots of problems, besides the boat. You became a Spanish tax resident just like a Spaniard would have become a Belgian tax resident by hanging out in Belgium for more than half a year. There are lots, and lots of consequences of that.

You really did just screw up, and you are just in denial about it, fuming about their "stupid laws" and so forth. I would not be surprised if that attitude made things worse for you there.

Well, you sort of have to go thru the earlier posts to see more of the picture. I do not know what reason you have to claim that my EU-flagged boat should get taxed (read: taxed again, because I have paid all relevant taxes in our boat's EU-state) while I use her in another EU- state. What good is the EU is we are not free to use our boats outside our 'native' EU states without the penalty of being taxed (in effect, double taxed).

The 180 day stay rule or else bocome a tax resident is OK. But not when it is used to tax something that you have purchased in another EU-state where you paid applicable tax. Imagine someone living in a camper van. They buy it in Germany and pay all applicable tax there, then go to Spain, (pay the tax again after 180 days ?), then they go to France (pay again??) , and so on and so forth. So, much as you seem to like such a system I will stick to my original opinion and call it a stupid law.

I assume you have a very specific reason why you are in favour of taxation but I would prefer if you could explain to me what I receive in return for paying this specific tax.

And as regards this passage from your post: "...You really did just screw up, and you are just in denial about it, fuming about their "stupid laws" and so forth." then I can only affirm you that I have not, as you put it "screw(ed) up", nor I am going too. I am simply angry with regulations which make no economical sense and penalize citizens.

Meanwhile those who make the laws have their YACHTS (can you see the difference between a 'boat' and a 'yacht'?) owned by companies registered offshore, for tax evasion reasons.

b.

[boatman61]

I think you'll find that the "Tax" is actually the equivilant of the US annual cruising fee that is charged on foriegn boats.... you do not have to pay VAT a second time otherwise all boats that paid their VAT in the Azores would be liable on reaching other parts of the EU.
I had to register/re-flag my boat in Portugal as I decided to stay on and took residency and it was not over the top but attempting to evade it would have raised the cost through the roof.
I think the problem as I understand it is the boat left EU waters for a period of time exceeding 2yrs making it liable...
There was a time one could sail the world without a passport, all you needed was your Ships Papers and skippers ticket... times change....
The funny thing about the US is that when I bought my Hunter in NC I was told that when/if I returned in her, even under a different flag, the boat could enter the country no probs.... it would just be ME that would have entry probs ie visa's etc....
Campervans, cars etc dont have to re-pay VAT, they just have to be registered into the country they've moved to after a set period of time UK/Spain/France where ever...
As to the remark...
Meanwhile those who make the laws have their YACHTS (can you see the difference between a 'boat' and a 'yacht'?) owned by companies registered offshore, for tax evasion reasons.
Whats new... its always been that way... whats yours is mine and whats mine is my own....
take time to read the previous posts, it seems a lot of folks are mistakenly 'kicking off' over nothing
Phil

[duncan_m]

I've read this and as a result of my own travelling around the place (I'm currently staying in Belgium!) I was interested in finding some good concrete research of my own.

I found that Deloitte and KPMG have some great tax advice and found other good articles on bring boats in and out of the EU.

I've crafted it all into a blog post here: Avoiding Tax Sailing in Europe

Let me know if you have any additions and I'll add them in.. Duncan

[goboatingnow]

HI duncan, read your blog, correct but a bit simplistic.

Anyone who intends to become a tax resident of an EU country needs to do some forward planning, it is possible for example to transfer your belongings into that country from another EU country or outside the EU, and not have to pay any local taxes, ie VAT spainish matric taxes etc. However you have to show you are "transferring your residence".

also

Non-EU registered boats in EU waters
If you are in EU waters under 18 months and stay in any one country for less than six months you are free from VAT. Over that and if you’re just cruising you’re heading into more work than it’s worth. The way to avoid it is to spend 6 months out of the EU and then re-enter, Turkey is a good candidate for this. There some good info here.

THis isnt true theres no need to spend 6 months outside to restart the Temporary Import period, one day will do.

[goboatingnow]

Imagine someone living in a camper van. They buy it in Germany and pay all applicable tax there, then go to Spain, (pay the tax again after 180 days ?), then they go to France (pay again??) , and so on and so forth.

Yes , imagine it, I live in Ireland, if I bring in any second car bought in the EU ( all local taxes paid) , I pay a further 40% ( yes 40%) Vehicle Registration tax to my local politicans. There are many situations all round the EU where different assets are taxed again and again. ]

It is changing, The EU are putting severe pressure on Spain to drop the matriculation taxes ( which apply to all means of transport, not just boats). But all this takes time

[sailorboy1]

All this pollitical crying about taxes, like you can avoid it if you are in the modern world.

Meanwhile after 10 pages we have nom idea how the orginal posting worked out as he only posted twice.

[bobfnbw]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

Meanwhile after 10 pages we have nom idea how the orginal posting worked out as he only posted twice.

LMAO... I have been thinking the same thing....

Kind of ticks me off when people come aboard, ask a question, and then leave never to post again.....
Its like being ripped off. I guess many people have a lot of time on their hands, and a few would like to take advantage of that, get what they need and move on.
Any one that participates in a on line group, like Cruisers forum, or any thing really knows that it takes active participation of a whole number of people to make these work. When we post questions about things, we give our help to others. When people just ask and not resond they take, but not contribute.
Kind of a bummer, but I guess thats life.

[conachair]

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Many of you recommend that we do not show any kind of resentment. And that was our lawyer's advise too. He also recommends that we keep a low profile and don't make a public case out of it. He wasn't happy with the idea of us having posted in three internet forums,
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That was from their second post. Maybe they have just been listening to legal advice.