BREXIT

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

But, as most problems are now unable to be handled by local sovereign governments (see immigration, climate change, health care, resource depletion, corporate irresponsibility, etc.) thanks to 'globalization', not likely a good one. Before Brexit even happens, Weavis is already planning to 'succumb' to a new master, albeit, perhaps temporary

Sounds kinda the reverse of 'freedom'. Though I don't know what the rules for change in the 'EU/UK agreement' (or whatever it's called) were previously, given politicians gelatinous spines (or should we say 'multitudinous responsibilities'?) nowadays, I know I'd have preferred to stay and try to work out whatever problems the 'leavers' had with the current agreement.

I don't think I'm alone when I say I think that the Brexiteers, much like the Trumpsters and the Bolsoneros, have been sold a bill of goods...

Ahh, the pleasures of 'Democracy and Affluence'---Plato's 'Enlightened Aristocracy' is ever more attractive...too bad it's, like the the hopes of those mentioned above, more likely to turn out to be just a case of 'the grass being greener over there'.

We'll all be lucky if the grass doesn't turn out to be poison.

Well in 2016 after the referendum we were told the economy would crash by all and sundry and the EU would gobble up all our jobs and money.
Today we have one of the lowest unemployment levels in the EU at 3.8% beaten only by Holland at 3.5%.
Sure the Pound crashed but that was to be expected considering the forces against our exit but bar the bitching we tightened our belts and got on with it.
In the last 3 weeks its rallied from €1.11 to €1.20 and around 7 cents against the dollar.
Even Atoll concedes its likely to rise further and he's a Remainer..
The EU's asset stripping days are numbered if Boris has the balls..
VW is moving to Turkey.. Sign of the times.???

[atoll]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

Sorry atoll but you will have to adapt to the new politically correct language and stop using that retrograd rethoric of yesteryear. There are no words like Labour, immigrants, etc. in Borisland, try to remember that from now on. I'll translate your programs to the new order speech, but just once:

love it!, I forgot to add the new series.."staying warm in a nuclear winter" for all those conservative preppers out there

[Exile]

Originally Posted by boatman61

It is.. demolished all but.. and the reason is this splendid politician seen here in debate with Guy (Heil) Verhofstadt about the European Army and EU ambitions.
Mr Marmite Rocks..
https://youtu.be/MkdIJCqcaNA

Classic Farage.

"The EU claims to be about peace but is really about power."

Re the EU creating its own military force after poking the Russian bear over Ukraine: "Who are you kidding, Mr. Juncker?"

But this one tops it of course, after calling out all the ex-communist/current MEP's with their big salaries, underground shopping malls and other privileges, his "welcome" speech to the new President of the EU Council:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHvTq6Bf_pg

[Exile]

Originally Posted by atoll

love it!, I forgot to add the new series.."staying warm in a nuclear winter" for all those conservative preppers out there

Translation? Calling Rumpi . . . .

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by weavis

I think I know the problem. You think your presence or action makes a difference.


I want to see the canals of the UK........ No one is interested in that, so for a year or more it will be a pleasant time........

Somehow people dont get it. We dont really matter.

Don't think about it either way, (though I know for a fact that, eventually, the hoi polloi, in the long run, are the decision makers, [note my 'Democracy and Affluence' lament]), mostly just sit back and laugh and operate under the 'if it don't kill me' mantra.

I'm jealous of the time you'll spend on the canals, though. Hard to imagine a more relaxing way of life.

Originally Posted by john61ct

Astroturf's where it's at

Not very nutritive though...

Originally Posted by Exile

What evidence do you have that suggests they didn't try and work these problems out? Over many years. More recently when it came to the immigration issue. I recall vehement objections to the mandates being loudly protested but falling on deaf ears. What compromises did the EU implement in an attempt to work out grievances on the part of the "leavers?" How did the UK reciprocate, if at all?

0. Nor do I have of the accuracy of the claims the 'leavers' were influenced by. Nor do I of the relation of those claims to the truth.

The point is that, given the current untrustworthiness of the current --political environment-- worldwide, the prudent choice would be continue to try change from within rather than to force change from without. Perhaps that's too conservative a position for you?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

0. Nor do I have of the accuracy of the claims the 'leavers' were influenced by. Nor do I of the relation of those claims to the truth.

The point is that, given the current untrustworthiness of the current --political environment-- worldwide, the prudent choice would be continue to try change from within rather than to force change from without. Perhaps that's too conservative a position for you?

It's not my position to take, but the citizens of the UK. But whether it came down to the Leavers not willing to try hard enough to reconcile differences doesn't seem consistent with the historical record. Or maybe such additional efforts would have been futile in any event since many Leavers viewed the EU as increasingly undemocratic. Either way, putting the blame on an overly hasty retreat by the party you disapprove of -- with admittedly zero evidence -- is hardly convincing. It's not as if British grievances arose overnight.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Don't think about it either way, (though I know for a fact that, eventually, the hoi polloi, in the long run, are the decision makers, [note my 'Democracy and Affluence' lament]), mostly just sit back and laugh and operate under the 'if it don't kill me' mantra.

I'm jealous of the time you'll spend on the canals, though. Hard to imagine a more relaxing way of life.



Not very nutritive though...



0. Nor do I have of the accuracy of the claims the 'leavers' were influenced by. Nor do I of the relation of those claims to the truth.

The point is that, given the current untrustworthiness of the current --political environment-- worldwide, the prudent choice would be continue to try change from within rather than to force change from without. Perhaps that's too conservative a position for you?

Its hard to change things with weak leaders.. since Maggie 'the handbag' Thatcher we have had nothing but sycophants as leaders..
They strut out of the country vowing to stand up for Britain only to return, tail between their legs having made another half dozen concessions.
The height of stupidity is to keep making the same mistakes and expecting a different result.
And.. when the masters pass a law that make them immune even from criminal prosecution its a step to far.
Its not a Democratic Institution.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well in 2016 after the referendum we were told the economy would crash by all and sundry and the EU would gobble up all our jobs and money.
Today we have one of the lowest unemployment levels in the EU at 3.8% beaten only by Holland at 3.5%.
Sure the Pound crashed but that was to be expected considering the forces against our exit but bar the bitching we tightened our belts and got on with it.
In the last 3 weeks its rallied from €1.11 to €1.20 and around 7 cents against the dollar.
Even Atoll concedes its likely to rise further and he's a Remainer..
The EU's asset stripping days are numbered if Boris has the balls..
VW is moving to Turkey.. Sign of the times.???

You do realize that you're still part of the EU? Let's see what happens after (and if) the exit actually happens (disregarding what form it takes) before we start patting ourselves on the back.

"...we tightened our belts and got on with it." doesn't sound to me like a resounding success at fiscal reform. But hey, if one's affluent enough to do that and still eat, pay the doctor bills and house note, and have the cost for a beer to spare, who am I to criticize.

If it even lasts, what the increasing buying power of the pound has over the real cost of goods to the average UK consumer has yet to be seen.

Perhaps you can explain to me VW moving to Turkey, vis a vis Brexit, though I'd assume that it is a 'sign of the times' if taken in the context of corporate globalization.

[alctel]

I'm really sad about it, not least because it means I won't be able to get an 18 month visa to french polynesia like the rest of europe does anymore, and now I have to go through the bureaucratic hell and expense that is the french visa system, just to get a year.

I will also lose the ability to go and live/work in any EU country as well. Great, thanks - love having opportunities taken away from me for no real reason.

Hopefully we'll rejoin in about 10 years when most of the brexiteers have died off - almost everyone under 40 wanted to stay, and it was the over 60s who overwhemlingly voted to leave. I imagine large swatchs of the NHS being sold off and privitised (in addition to the 10% that is already been done) will speed up that process.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well in 2016 after the referendum we were told the economy would crash by all and sundry and the EU would gobble up all our jobs and money.
Today we have one of the lowest unemployment levels in the EU at 3.8% beaten only by Holland at 3.5%.
Sure the Pound crashed but that was to be expected considering the forces against our exit but bar the bitching we tightened our belts and got on with it.
In the last 3 weeks its rallied from €1.11 to €1.20 and around 7 cents against the dollar.
Even Atoll concedes its likely to rise further and he's a Remainer..
The EU's asset stripping days are numbered if Boris has the balls..
VW is moving to Turkey.. Sign of the times.???

the pound has only rallied due to international investors cashing in on the cheap pound to buy property, with the potential for nationalization of key services taken away with the fall of corbyn and the labour party.

couple that with a definite direction now for the country and boris's magic money tree splurging billions a degree of investor confidence has returned.
however a strong pound is not good for export,employment or our manufacturing industries.
not a very good scenario if the country wants to break into new markets

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Exile

It's not my position to take, but the citizens of the UK. But whether it came down to the Leavers not willing to try hard enough to reconcile differences doesn't seem consistent with the historical record. Or maybe such additional efforts would have been futile in any event since many Leavers viewed the EU as increasingly undemocratic. Either way, putting the blame on an overly hasty retreat by the party you disapprove of -- with admittedly zero evidence -- is hardly convincing. It's not as if British grievances arose overnight.

And stating an opinion became "putting the blame on" when exactly? And you know I 'disapprove' of a 'party' how exactly? Perhaps the disapproval you think you perceive is with the leaders, or only certain leaders. What are your criteria for an overly hasty retreat?

Democracy is entirely possible even when all the facts aren't. It is unlikely that such a democracy will be beneficial to the largest possible proportion of the population.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Perhaps you can explain to me VW moving to Turkey, vis a vis Brexit, though I'd assume that it is a 'sign of the times' if taken in the context of corporate globalization.

As a point of interest, VW has more than 60 factories, in more than 25 countries, all around the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...roup_factories

[jmh2002]

On a related subject, here is an interesting article from a different perspective to throw into the discussion.

What rich countries get wrong about the EU budget:
https://www.politico.eu/article/what...SS_Syndication

The story rich western European countries tell themselves is a nice one: They are generous souls helping out their poorer eastern neighbors, who rely on EU subsidies and the goodwill of the EU's so-called "net payers." They also like to paint these countries as ungrateful aid recipients, pointing to the Euroskeptic rhetoric of leaders such as Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán and Polish leader Jarosław Kaczyński.

But the larger macroeconomic picture tells a different story.

Contrary to popular wisdom, most of the money in Europe flows from East to West, not the other way around...

As is normal, people only see what they want to see, and there is always more than one side of a story. Read the article in full for more details.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by atoll

the pound has only rallied due to international investors cashing in on the cheap pound to buy property, with the potential for nationalization of key services taken away with the fall of corbyn and the labour party.

couple that with a definite direction now for the country and boris's magic money tree splurging billions a degree of investor confidence has returned.
however a strong pound is not good for export,employment or our manufacturing industries.
not a very good scenario if the country wants to break into new markets

Lol....... There is nothing that will be positive to those that don't want something.

You seem to forget that Britains rulers went against the wishes of a democratic vote and all this mess is collusion between them and a European cartel.

How do you expect ANY good to come out of deceit?

We cannot trust either the government of Britain or the European hook in the jaws leading slowly toward political subservience.

Its all about power and money.

If you ignore the principles involved, and do not see the bigger picture, you will sell out to the apparent benefits and give your identity away.

In the meantime, as my observations and opinions and votes have been taken away from me by theft.........I observe with sadness that democracy has been lost in the UK.

If you dont see that... then all this talk is a waste of time. With democracy sometimes you are the pigeon, sometimes the statue............

but with this situation......... this blatant ignoring of a referendum vote we have nothing left.

Britain has lost regardless.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by weavis

We dont know the extent of Johnsons plans, I looked in the mail but he deleted me from his mailing list, we REALLY DONT KNOW TILL IT HAPPENS.

In the meantime, .......................

er.. yeah..

In the meantime....why don't you..
.... Ask Huda?.
https://youtu.be/EzfrsxCQhD4