Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[goboatingnow]

To me it's quite clear (unless there's something lost in translation) that boats over 12.0 metres (we're 13.0 metres) can pay for monthly periods. I therefore assume I'm due to pay at best €130 for the few days in May it will take me to clear out, OR at worst €650 for the cumulative months since 1 January - which was the subject of my posting.

I cannot believe that any yacht entering Greece for just a few days on passage is liable for the full annual payment, as you seem to suggest - unless that's not what you meant?

I believe, based on my own discussions with my greek based friend, who reads and speaks greek.

There is a debate on what concession applies to visiting boats. He believes this is one of the major areas of lobbying going on at the moment, and he believes there will be some concession to visitors , i.e. 30-60 or 90 days , there was an expectation that this would be in the law when it was discussed. but seemingly there is a concern that this concession , if too great would cause a flight of greek boats, But I would not be surprised to see a concession for the duration of the visitors visa, after all , you pay for the transit log ( or DEPKA for EU boats at the moment),

Furthermore there seems to be a debate about what "permanently resident in Greece" will mean,


But what is clear , is that this is a annual tax, not a monthly one

My friend interprets it as follows

Once the tax applies , its an annual tax, irrespective of how long you stay. if you arrive and stay 6 months, you pay 12 months annual tax ( the first year is prorated to the end of the current tax year) .

The is a 30% reduction for permanently resident in greece yachts, contrary to the CA text, he believes this applies to all classes of yacht , i.e. 7-12 and over. ( which makes sense as its seems bizarre that the 30% only applies to one group).

SO the tax is paid for the year , from the moment the yacht becomes taxable. hence for say a 10m yacht , as soon as its taxable it pays 400 euros , irrespective if it leaves in 2014 , ( with a 30% discount if its permanently resident ) .

over 12m , there is either pay the full amount , i.e. 1200 euros for 12m , or pay on the drip at 10/metre ( over 12m) per month. This is purely a concession to the fact that the amount is large . Again the 30% reduction will apply for resident boats

And yes , I do mean that if the yacht is taxable , you will pay 1200, even if you cleave a month later. The law is clear, there is no rebate for a partial year. ( i.e. time spent outside greece).

The boats on the hard issue, my friend believes applies to vessels , virtually permenatly on the hard ( i.e. for a year or more) this is to avoid trying to get tax from people with unusable or boats not capable of going into the water. There are a lot of these strewn around most ports

Dave

[athene]

I have to say I'm still not much wiser. If I'm struggling, then I despair to think how the port police (many of whom - shall we say - are not exactly Mastermind material) are going to cope with it.

If I check in with the port police, say, in Gaios on the way out of Greek waters and they allow me to pay €130 for the month of May to get me clear to Albania, how on God's earth are they going to exact the balance for the rest of 2014 without pursuing me all the way up to Croatia?

And if your friend infers that boats permanently laid up on the hard won't be subject to the tax, presumably he also infers that boats just laid up for the winter months will.

[beneteau-500]

Re goboatingnow /Dave last post is totally correct have been in the Hellenic shipping union office this afternoon trying to get the gist of it all but one point is not entirely clear and there seems to be some conjecture on this is the fees for non eu boats transit log and the DEKPA log for eu boats and for those of you who have had to pay the .88 euro cent taxes at some ports weather these are still to be collected.

In the Hellenic office here in Piraeus they seem to think that the fees for non eu boats will be still collected as they will technicaly have 90 days but i did point out they can stay in greece for up to 180 and they seem to think at this point the DEKPA fee will not have to be paid as the new cruising tax will cover this.

but i pointed out what if a eu/DEKPA boat leaves greek waters and goes ie to turkey for a week and then comes back in past we have had to pay a fee to re enter and have DEKPA re stamped ( in my case it as 38.40 euros each time ) they where all unclear and i got know Definitive answer on this as yet

will be back there in morning to see if can get more info

[Chris Robb]

Dave - thanks for your efforts to help clarify the impossible!

It seems to be fairly clear that the bill as laid out is short of facts that make it fit for purpose. I have not seen the act yet. Is residency mentioned? If so, is there a concept of a boat being resident under tax law (probably not) so is the "residency" applying to the owner - in which case, I am not resident therefore have nothing to worry about (how I wish!).

I have seen the CA's summary, but it would be useful to have a complete translation to read myself - is it available anywhere?

Confused!!!!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by athene

I have to say I'm still not much wiser. If I'm struggling, then I despair to think how the port police (many of whom - shall we say - are not exactly Mastermind material) are going to cope with it.

If I check in with the port police, say, in Gaios on the way out of Greek waters and they allow me to pay €130 for the month of May to get me clear to Albania, how on God's earth are they going to exact the balance for the rest of 2014 without pursuing me all the way up to Croatia?

And if your friend infers that boats permanently laid up on the hard won't be subject to the tax, presumably he also infers that boats just laid up for the winter months will.

Again, with the proviso , that this is from someone else. My friend disputes the English translation that suggests there is a month to month payment option for 12m and over. ( and if you think about it , why should an 11.7, boat pay 400 euros and you pay 120 for a month) .

He says that once you are subject to the tax, its an annual tax, There is a debate about concessions for short term visitors. Leaving that aside, to deal with your question , when you enter, you will have to pay the full annual tax, precisely so you will not have to be chased all around the world. the monthly payment option , as far as he's concerned is really only open to residents with bank accounts.

Yes if your boat is in the water and then on the hard and then in the water , aka like most boats, you will pay the annual tax.

In my view , there will be a concession period for visiting boats, simply too deal with the huge influx of summer foreign visiting boats. after that it will be an annual tax with no rebate for time outside greece.


dave

[athene]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

I have seen the CA's summary, but it would be useful to have a complete translation to read myself - is it available anywhere?

Confused!!!!

The more I read on this forum and elsewhere, the more persuaded I become that once this law really gets under way (I guess around next April/May for most foreign yachts), the port police and other enforcers will be largely making it up as they go along.

That's always been the case with most rules and regulations since we've been cruising Greece (which, after all, is one of its undeniable attractions).

[beneteau-500]

Chris as i have residency here in Greece has i own a property with all the new laws and taxes and yes all those that have been introduce are law now i am still un clear i have been hit with new property taxes which only just come into law and now must pay a load of taxes up front for the next 12 months and must pay them by the 14th of this month or i will be hit with 100% penalty if not payed i am getting the clear impression that the greek Govt are not going to waiver on any thing that they have introduced I am in athens now and i can see myself going from one tax office to another for next 2 days just to get my taxes paid and when the cruising tax comes into effect i can see total greek confusion happening

[athene]

Originally Posted by beneteau-500

... and when the cruising tax comes into effect i can see total greek confusion happening

Which is a shame, because if the introduction had been thought through and carefully phased - not least for skippers like me who it appears face a charge of €1300 for the few days it will take me to clear Greek waters - it might not have caused such negative rumour and alarm as it obviously has and will continue to do.

Maybe, trying to be an optimist, there may be a period of grace so that yachts wishing to depart rather than pay the tax at least have the opportunity to do so.

Excuse me - I think that's a flying pig formation that's just passed my window ...

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by athene

Which is a shame, because if the introduction had been thought through and carefully phased - not least for skippers like me who it appears face a charge of €1300 for the few days it will take me to clear Greek waters - it might not have caused such negative rumour and alarm as it obviously has and will continue to do.

Maybe, trying to be an optimist, there may be a period of grace so that yachts wishing to depart rather than pay the tax at least have the opportunity to do so.

Excuse me - I think that's a flying pig formation that's just passed my window ...

An utter shame. I think what puts people off most is just not knowing. And also when the sums are large, being very apprehensive about what rules they will interpret/enforce - and how.

[athene]

All they really need to do is announce a 1 July date for implementation. At least that gives everyone a fair breathing space, so that if they intend to leave they can do so without penalty and if they plan to just pass through during the Summer they can amend their itinerary if they wish.

Let's hope the CA and RYA and their fellow EU bodies are lobbying along these lines. Whether they'll be listened to is another thing, of course.

[athene]

Sorry if I seem to be over-posting, but new information has just come to hand from a fellow admin on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki who is of Greek extraction, has a house and yacht on Samos and has sourced a Greek copy of the relevant law.

He advises that

'It is not a cruising tax but a property tax - due in December and not in January - for all boats that are within the Greek jurisdiction in December 2013. The tax year will be 2014. There is a penalty provision that is very disturbing. If you have not already paid the tax you are not allowed to depart from a Greek port until you do so plus a fine up to 100% of the unpaid tax.'

He has no advice on what the options are for foreign skippers with yachts laid up in Greece who can't get to a port police office before 31 December!

[NornaBiron]

I am reading more and more different interpretations of this law, both in this thread and here New tax for foreign yachts based in Greece from 1st January 2014????

We are liveaboards who live on the hook and are committed to a few months of next year in Greece. Our policy is to wait and see what happens. We sincerely hope that we do not have to fork out €1500 for 3 months on the hook and 1 months cruising through on our way out!

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again, with the proviso , that this is from someone else. My friend disputes the English translation that suggests there is a month to month payment option for 12m and over. ( and if you think about it , why should an 11.7, boat pay 400 euros and you pay 120 for a month) .

Is that example any more stupid than the 11.7m yacht paying €400 and me paying €1220 for the extra 50cm?

I wonder what percentage of foreigners with taxable boats in Greece have even heard about this new tax? I suspect that there will be a lot of people showing up in Greece next summer who will receive a huge €shock€

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by athene

Sorry if I seem to be over-posting, but new information has just come to hand from a fellow admin on the World Cruising and Sailing Wiki who is of Greek extraction, has a house and yacht on Samos and has sourced a Greek copy of the relevant law.

He advises that

'It is not a cruising tax but a property tax - due in December and not in January - for all boats that are within the Greek jurisdiction in December 2013. The tax year will be 2014. There is a penalty provision that is very disturbing. If you have not already paid the tax you are not allowed to depart from a Greek port until you do so plus a fine up to 100% of the unpaid tax.'

He has no advice on what the options are for foreign skippers with yachts laid up in Greece who can't get to a port police office before 31 December!

Unfortunately, that makes much more sense of what appeared to be senseless details for a "cruising " type tax. We were all perhaps trying to make it fit for a boating tax and not a property tax, but that is I am afraid what it might look like. I wish I could get a copy of the translation to see for myself. However the word Residency was mentioned earlier .... perhaps it does not apply to non residents???

Perhaps its time to run a sweep stake on what it will be....!

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

Unfortunately, that makes much more sense of what appeared to be senseless details for a "cruising " type tax. We were all perhaps trying to make it fit for a boating tax and not a property tax, but that is I am afraid what it might look like. I wish I could get a copy of the translation to see for myself. However the word Residency was mentioned earlier .... perhaps it does not apply to non residents???

Perhaps its time to run a sweep stake on what it will be....!

I'm not sure it's been published in the Gazette yet m so not sure where the CAs translation is coming from. But yes it's a property tax. I believe there will be concessions for visiting yachts. But those on the hard for part of the year are going to get caught for the annual tax

The gazette is here http://www.et.gr/

Dave