Greek Tax! - MERGED 4 THREADS

[Palarran]

Welcome to the Cruisers Forum nimbusgb.

I had posted this on the other thread relating to this tax. A big difference is if you are a vat-paid boat or not. For us, this tax will make little difference.

As a non-EU boat I have to pay a cruising tax now. From Noonsite:

Non-EU Boats
Transit Log: Issued for 6 months and can be extended for up to 18 months: 80 Euros.
Cruising Tax Charge (replacing the Cruising Permit): 15 euro per metre, charged for each period of 3 months spent in Greek waters (about €200 for a 12m yacht). Payable at the end of each 90 day period and not payable if departing before 90 days. Missing this payment risks a fine. If your yacht is on the hard, this tax is still payable, so be sure to make arrangements for payment during your absence.

This adds up to 1080 euros per year for Palarran right now. If this law passes in the future I'll pay 100 euros per meter x 18 = 1800 then get a 30% discount for being permanent which equals 1260 euros. So this change would cost me an additional 180 euros.

I pay around 4500 euros for 10 months on the hard, haul out, and launch - complete. It's twice the price in Turkey - period - anywhere. Also, most of my quay moorings have been free in Greece, not so anywhere else in the Med.

I really like the Greeks, the scenery is awesome, food reasonable in price but not outstanding in taste, so again, for an extra 180 euros - great.

It's very cheap compared to Croatia.

[nimbusgb]

Thanks, been here for 3 years without a post!

My 5 weeks sailing costs me around 4500 Euro per annum. That's 47 weeks ashore, 2 launch an haul rotations, flights, ferries, taxis, lots of Ouzo, food and beer in abundance.

It's a little more than it would cost me to keep the boat in the South of England where I could tootle down to the boat after work 365 days of the year and just sit aboard or go out for an evening sail, entertain friends and explore further afield in the summer. I'd have to sacrifice much of the sunshine but I can get that anywhere at the end of a flight.

[Palarran]

It will also be really interesting if you don't have to pay the tax when hauled out. If that becomes the case, this tax will actually save me money.

[jckb]

The Cruising Association (CA) news item mentioned as a link at the start of this thread is being kept up to date. The CA is obtaining an accurate translation of the law, which should clear up some ambiguities, and will then ask questions of appropriate authorities in attempts to clear up remaining uncertainties.

Meanwhile, a few points, some of which may raise a few hackles! These include some of my conclusions in brackets, which aren't supported by official or CA reports or data, so take these with a big pinch of salt:

1. All small (under 24m?) boats over 7m used for leisure activities in Greece will pay the tax. This includes commercial leisure - charter boats, and day excursion boats licensed to carry fewer than 49 passengers, including those plying trade to other countries.

2. The large majority of craft affected are locally owned and operated, and are unlikely to consider leaving Greek waters.

3. Visiting boats are a minority, and it is realised by the authorities that some may consider leaving or avoiding Greece. The most vulnerable group are those over 12m LOA, who keep their boats on the water all year, who are on tight budgets.

4. The tax, or fee, affects boats afloat in Greek waters. Ashore on a hard is not afloat, (and arguably, boats on "innocent passage" will not be affected.)

5. That's tough luck for boats under 12m, which will have to pay between €200 and €400 for a calender year's license when they launch in Greece . . .

6. While boats over 12m have two options to reduce their fees: (a) pay for one month at a time while afloat in Greek waters at €10 per metre per month (calender? or 30 days?) or (b) pay for a full calender year and get a 30% discount (assuming pre-payment is the condition, although this is not worded as such in the law as published)

7. Surveys available to the Cruising Association indicate that less than a quarter of people who cruise their boats in the Mediterranean do so on "tight budgets". (It's highly likely that Greece won't miss these people too much due to their low spending habits)

And now for the fun byline which some of you may have already heard. "Boats plan to leave Croatia due to having to pay exorbitant fees for moorings, quaysides and marinas near popular locations". "Bureaucratic hassles in Turkey over waste disposal regulations are driving large numbers of visiting boats to other countries".

So, what's the destination of this grand migration?

It's a competitive world out there . . . and all destinations are working hard to calculate what price they can ask before the customers walk away.

[Chris Robb]

Originally Posted by jckb

The [URL="http://www.cruising.org.uk/node/22634"]


4. The tax, or fee, affects boats afloat in Greek waters. Ashore on a hard is not afloat, (and arguably, boats on "innocent passage" will not be affected.)

Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

[Alenka]

Nothing quite like biting the hand that feeds you.

Two years ago it seemed people were voting with their sails and moving out of Greece. Tavernas dead, shops empty, harbours with plenty of berths. This year people had just started to move back.

Places like Kastos rely on visiting yachts just to keep their village alive. How long before Greece is looking for another bail out from the EU to prop up comminities that cannot survive.

The best thing the CA could do is publish a list of email addresses for local village mayors and leave it up to the cruising community to directly voice our opposition.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

Yes paying the tax on a hauled out boat or not is a key issue here. If it only applies to boats 'afloat" as Jim suggests then the tax is alot more reasonable for cruisers as they can opt to only pay the tax for the periods they are cruising.

ie the tax wouldnt negatively affect the skippers choice of haul out country and in doing so would save the thousands of jobs and businesses related to yearly maintenance etc.

Like you Ive lost all optimism on a rational outcome on this tax though due to the 12m step change fiasco and the 1 month (lack of) lead time.

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Ok, maybe for boats over 12m it will be €400 plus €100 per meter over 12m

7m - 8m €200
8m – 10m €300
10m – 12m €400
Over 12m €100/metre

that pricing makes more sense than the jump from 400 to 1200

Why any sliding scale? We are two people on a 19 meter sail boat. We are 100% LED and other power reducing electronics & solar powered at that! At anchor, we displace a bit more water, but we don't take it with us. Our aux is only 115 HP compared to a power boat of the same size and SO WHAT. Fuel taxes account for that difference already. We impact the system no greater than a boat half our size. In fact, with holding tanks and composting heads, we are better able to comply with Zero Discharge than most small vessels.

Makes no sense at all. What makes sense is to make yourself attractive to all cruisers and other tourists and collect taxes from the businesses that will have favorable increases. A great example close to home is the city of Little Current in the North Channel of Canada. No charge for the city marina all day including water power, showers & internet at their great, well manned docks. Stay past 9:30 PM and you get a dock charge. Result is Little Current is the meca for re-stocking, theaters, restaurants, fuel, crew change. Nearby anchorages are free. We feel quite extravagant when we visit there and spend what would have gone to the local tax man on food and entertainment. -Nothing but winners all around.

You don't encourage mobile customers faced with choices by threatening to rob them. In a similar fashion, I choose not to sail near Somolia.

The Greeks, like the Italians, are in trouble due to their own excesses and failure to collect their own taxes. Their massive deficits will not be solved by raping a few tourists, however, they can make their situation worse.

As I recall, the Italians did something like this a couple of years ago and eventually decided that shooting one's self in both feet was a bad idea. Their marinas and future bookings dropped to unsustainable low numbers, like 5% or so.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

We are 14.6m loa, <snip>

The tax for us will amount to €1500. It would be very difficult for us to prove that the boat is based in Greece for a year as we do not use marinas and do not lift annually. Therefore it is unlikely that we'd be able to get the 30% discount for paying for a year up front without causing some personal difficulties..

Would the discount (down to €1,050) change your mind?

[Alenka]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Why any sliding scale? We are two people on a 19 meter sail boat. We are 100% LED and other power reducing electronics & solar powered at that! At anchor, we displace a bit more water, but we don't take it with us. Our aux is only 115 HP compared to a power boat of the same size and SO WHAT. Fuel taxes account for that difference already. We impact the system no greater than a boat half our size. In fact, with holding tanks and composting heads, we are better able to comply with Zero Discharge than most small vessels.

This is not about protecting the environment. Greek people do not like to pay tax and now their country is just about bankrupt.

Unfortunately, they see taxing non-Greeks as a way out of their problems. Saling is not a pastime they take to in any serious numbers so a tax on boats will only affect a small number of Greeks. A popular type of boat with the Greeks is the covered RIB. They will launch the boat from a trailer and take it home with them at night and they won't pay the tax.

People who have bought villas in Greece are also being targeted - I understand they now have to pay a tax if they have a swimming pool. Again very few locals indulge in having a swimming pool.

At a time when they need every penny it seems they are hell bent on driving people away. Okay so maybe only 10% will move out. If I lost 10% off my income it would hurt and likewise this tax will hurt not help the Greek economy.

What happens next year (2015) when the revenue they expected fails to materialise? Are they going to increase the tax and drive even more people away??

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Chris Robb

Does it not say " sail, moor or Anchor in Greek waters?" Not sure about the afloat bit... We may find that the greeks call moored - on dry land. So just being there will mean you pay a year. I hope not but I wouldn't be too optimistic on this one.. I would be accepting of the tax if it was only for time afloat.....

Correct. I think your interpretation is unlikely, but this is one of many clarifications CA will be asking for.

Originally Posted by barra

Yes paying the tax on a hauled out boat or not is a key issue here. If it only applies to boats 'afloat" as Jim suggests then the tax is alot more reasonable for cruisers as they can opt to only pay the tax for the periods they are cruising.

The tax is a pre-payment, and once paid, there's no rebate for being out of Greece or out of the water! Yes, boats over 12m may pay for a month at a time. As above, the situation of boats ashore needs to be clarified.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

Why any sliding scale?

Because bigger boats generally have bigger budgets; maintainence goes up as the square of LOA, and depreciation the cube of LOA! So a linear increase in tax becomes peanuts

Their massive deficits will not be solved by raping a few tourists

Originally Posted by Alenka

Unfortunately, they see taxing non-Greeks as a way out of their problems. Saling is not a pastime they take to in any serious numbers so a tax on boats will only affect a small number of Greeks.

The large majority of those paying the tax will be boats used by Greeks (albeit some are registered on Belgian or UK small ships register!). As surveys in 2012 discovered, in this size range, Greek used boats out-number visitor boats about 3:1. EU boats will be treated the same way as these boats.

The majority of yacht tourism comes from charter boats, plus the 6 week invasion from Italy escaping Italy's high prices. Charters have 50% concession on their tax rates, and with their occupancy, the per head cost goes up by the princely sum of around €1 per week. The Italian invaders, with umpteen young people squished into each boat for a good holiday, are unlikely to be heavily affected.

Let's face it, live aboard tourism in Greece is trivial compared to that lot. 5% of the boat park will feel hurt, and may be re-thinking their plans. Bigger boats with frugal budgets may shift to Turkey for layup, and maybe visit by the month. I'm sorry for Kastellorizon and other islands reliant on visitors from Turkey. I suspect a few of the agents being appointed to collect the taxes may be persuaded to put telescopes to their blind eye.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by jckb

Would the discount (down to €1,050) change your mind?

Probably not, still more than 10% of our annual budget, just not affordable.
To be fair, we were leaving anyway. We'll now have to pay €600 to stay for the four months of 2014 that we planned. Hey ho, that's life. We've had a good, cheap, five years in Greece so we can't complain really.

[athene]

The Greeks' assiduity in collecting taxes is not exactly exemplary, which is why they are in the situation they are at present. If, as jckb suggests, this tax will apply to the majority of Greek small craft owners as well, I can't see it being very successful.

What I can see is many more Greek boat owners slipping the odd €20 to the port police to turn a blind eye (I've seen it happen).

It will be interesting to see the nature and calibre of the 'agents' which are said to be in the process of appointment to collect the tax. Are we going to have a situation like the Croatia anchoring concessions, with dories descending on boats as soon as they anchor to levy the tax? Will they patrol the quays to pounce on yachts as they moor up? Will they have powers of arrest and detention if truculent skippers refuse to pay?

If it's going to rely upon skippers presenting themselves to the port police (once they've tracked down their often carefully concealed offices) like lambs to the shearer, then I think there's going to be large-scale evasion - especially by EU-registered yachts simply passing through en route to Turkey or other Mediterranean destinations. As a result, the tax will simply serve to damage Greece's legendary reputation for laid back hospitality without delivering its targeted financial contribution.

Perhaps if, as some posters suggest, the contribution envisaged from visiting cruisers is modest in comparison with that from Greek boats, it will be a tax more honoured in the breach than the observance.

[jckb]

Originally Posted by athene

It will be interesting to see the nature and calibre of the 'agents' which are said to be in the process of appointment to collect the tax. Are we going to have a situation like the Croatia anchoring concessions, with dories descending on boats as soon as they anchor to levy the tax? Will they patrol the quays to pounce on yachts as they moor up? Will they have powers of arrest and detention if truculent skippers refuse to pay?

Sounds just like arrivals in popular North European harbours!

Think Peter Port, Yarmouth IOW, Salcombe, Darmouth!

As the law is worded, they have powers to detain boats which don't carry a fee receipt until a non-discounted fee is paid, plus 100% fine. And the responsibility for payment rests jointly and severally on the owner, the beneficial owner, and the user of the boat. Nothing to do with flags and registration. Tough stuff.