Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

[Kalinka1]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Dockhead-

We're US citizens on a US vessel looking to do a season in Norway. Our current plan is:

-Azores in June
-Ireland by July.
-We'll spend our 90days in Ireland then jump over to the UK in October.
-In mid December we'll fly to Germany to visit friends then back to the UK mid January. (Hopefully reset our 6 months in UK).
-Norway in May

Unfortunately, that makes 7 months in the UK if we can't reset out 6 month by leaving for Germany midway through. But, how enforced is the 180 days out of 365 issue? Will we have a problem no matter what?

Edit: Next issue.... after our 90 days in Norway, we had planned on sailing down to Scotland, with a quick jump to Ireland for another 90days... back to UK and start the process again for another season in the Baltic.

Thanks,

Matt

Have sort of done this. When in ireland it was hard to find a Garda Officer to clear us in took 4 days and we eventually met them in the club bar! Norway the first year we were cleared in over the phone by the Marina manager calling I assume the Police immigration Officer. ireland and UK very difficult to find some one to stamp your passport if travelling by boat! Norway the Officer came to the boat because he was bored with the Airport! You can't do Norway in one season! Nor Ireland or the UK. We found if you make an effort to comply with the rules by speaking to the authorities then just about anything is possible. When we were in Norway the immigration asked us if we needed more time to just phone them and we could have another 3 months.!

[fieldtrip400]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Don't despair --

The whole Southern shore of the Med is not EU and not Schengen. Not all of those countries are safe -- you'll have to do your own research -- but at least Morocco is, and that is a fabulous country worth as much time as you can spend. Tunisia is also interesting, but I'm not sure it's safe -- you'll have to check.

All you have to do is spend enough time in one or another of those countries, plus Gib if you like (but not much to do there; Morocco is MUCH more interesting), in order to stay within your Schengen limits.

I think that's the only way you'll be able to stay legal -- you COULD work the French bilateral treaty -- the French won't count your time in Italy -- but then you have to end up in the Canaries, and the Spanish WILL count all your time in France against you.


I will say again that I would not advise cheating. There are some on here who have been getting away with it, and the Italians and French are famously relaxed about it, but if you do get caught, they will throw you out, fine you, and you'll be banned from entering Europe for some time. I wouldn't risk it.

Checking you, contrary to what some on here have posted, is simplicity itself -- they just look at the stamps in your passports and add up the days. If you're missing a stamp, they will presume you were in Schengen and whack you. Be careful, by the way, to ALWAYS get and exit stamp when you leave. It means you have to be sure to leave from a port of entry and you may have to go to a lot of trouble to find an official with a stamp, but not doing so can really get you in trouble.

Thank you, great info!-- I have a question let's just say we picked up the boat from Rhodes then ask for the exit stamp in Rhodes and then we sailed all the way up to Athens and checked in what would happen.. would they assume that we were still in Schengen time because we didn't have an entry stamp into turkey Albania Etc? I did have someone suggest to circle the days at Sea in green Schengen time in red with the exit stamp of course but at least it shows that we kept track of our sea going time. And do you still have any idea about getting a Spanish Visa a viable option at all?
Thank you so much!!

[fieldtrip400]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Okay.. here's a suggestion.. bearing in mind I do not know your finances nor your family situation.. but its something I would consider in your situation.
Husband and wife fly to boat (Kids stay with parents/in-laws) taking as much of what they want for the boat.. arranging flight out to Greece and return flight from Madrid.
Sail the boat from Greece to Almerimar, Spain.. the cheapest marina in the Med but safe and with all marine services.. take the route S off Sicily across to Sardinia, Ballearics and then the mainland down to Almerimar.. can be done comfortably in a month.. leave her there and fly home.. stay a while..
Fly back with kids into London and do the Historic UK bit then get the train to Paris.. do the French bit, catch the train to Madrid.. do the Spanish bit.. stay in pensions which are low cost guest house's as opposed to hotels and are good, clean cheap places to sleep in, popular with locals and used by many for back packing style holidays by people of all ages.. hotels are for poseurs with dosh..
A month should be more than enough for this.. not counting UK time as the Schengen starts at Ashford UK when you enter French jurisdiction..arrive at boat with 4 weeks to spare Schengen time.
Sail for Gibraltar.. 30hrs away and take a berth there.. its just a bit dearer than Almerimar.. this leaves you a month or just under of Schengen time so if you wished you could either kill time wasting a week of Schengen driving up to the white villages in the foothills of the Sierras, do ferry trips to
Tangiers, take the kids on tours of the rock and stocking up the boat with luxury goods in the good supermarkets there.. be warned the prices are nearly on a par with the UK.
Fresh produce and Parma hams just before you sail I would suggest a day trip across to La Linea for those..
Then you can head for the Canaries with 3 weeks for your fitting out.
Realistically you could do all this in Gib and time your arrival for just before your registration date close's..
Train rides can be bought fairly cheaply as family package deals with multiple destinations.. just need your timetable for the 'tour' worked out.
Trains are clean, fast and reliable.. put the UK trains services to shame in every way.
For the UK a hire car is likely cheaper if you want to tour the country.. bed and breakfast is everywhere and varies from excellent to rat holes.

Thank you so much for the incredible thought.put into this! We are thinking through it all

[nwdiver]

Some don't seem to realize, it is maximum of 90 days in, then you need to spend 90 out, that is 90 days in 180, some use the term reset as if it's leave for a few days then return for another 90 days...........it tough sailing the Med for North Americans......the boat not so much it can stay for 12-18 months....

It may be best move the boat then get the people the hell outta Dodge for 90 days then return to the boat and use the next 90 to get the hell outta the Med......

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Assuming you enter legally and have your passport checked, they certainly can tell. Even if they don't physically stamp your passport, they will have it electronically. The guy at the port may have to go back to the office and pull up the electronic records but there is record tied to your passport.

This is why it would only become a problem if I stayed in the same port for to long.
But if I don’t, it won’t be a problem. My passport hardly ever even leaves my wallet when I travel. I have made 45 flights last year. Most of them international. And for most of them my passport never left my wallet.
See, I do not live in the EU, but I do live within the Schengen Area. Therefore when I travel to France, Italy or the Netherlands for example my passport is not checked, and there is in fact no record of me actually having left my country...

As long as nothing goes wrong: yeah, they will accept the address you put down on the form but if you claim non-resident status to avoid VAT and you have been in the Schengen for 2-3 years straight, at best you will have to do some fast talking if someone checks. You might not be able to claim residence on a boat but I'll bet they won't accept that you aren't a non-EU resident either. At best you have a messy situation and likely they will ask for the VAT immediately and let the courts sort it out later.

It is perfectly possible to be a non-EU resident, and at the same time a Schengen resident. I am one. And I know that many Swiss do successfully manage to avoid paying VAT on their yachts by periodically sailing out of the EU.

[hellosailor]

Speaking of long stays and residence permits...
If one obtains a status like that, is that also going to impose other obligations, like tax liability? Anything else that might gotcha? Or create a "residence" conflict with the "residence" in a US tax jurisdiction?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by fieldtrip400

Thank you, great info!-- I have a question let's just say we picked up the boat from Rhodes then ask for the exit stamp in Rhodes and then we sailed all the way up to Athens and checked in what would happen.. would they assume that we were still in Schengen time because we didn't have an entry stamp into turkey Albania Etc? I did have someone suggest to circle the days at Sea in green Schengen time in red with the exit stamp of course but at least it shows that we kept track of our sea going time. And do you still have any idea about getting a Spanish Visa a viable option at all?
Thank you so much!!

There's one guy on here who, apparently on the advice of some Italian customs guy, checks out of Schengen but then just stays. Checks in again when he has been "out" long enough. People get away with all kinds of things, but if you caught the wrong immigration guy on the wrong day, it would be child's play to pierce such schemes. Also you wouldn't want to be caught dawdling after having checked out.

I don't know about a Spanish long stay visa -- Spain is not one of my countries. If you can get one, then that would be a great solution as in France you will have a whole new 90 days when you get there -- they don't count days in Italy. So if you have a Spanish visa, then you get another 90 days -- you're home free.

But if I were you I would just go to Morocco and not bother with any visas etc. I spent a month there when I was a student and it was one of the most unforgettable travel experiences I ever had, maybe THE most. A fabulously interesting country.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by fieldtrip400

Thank you, great info!-- I have a question let's just say we picked up the boat from Rhodes then ask for the exit stamp in Rhodes and then we sailed all the way up to Athens and checked in what would happen.. would they assume that we were still in Schengen time because we didn't have an entry stamp into turkey Albania Etc? I did have someone suggest to circle the days at Sea in green Schengen time in red with the exit stamp of course but at least it shows that we kept track of our sea going time. And do you still have any idea about getting a Spanish Visa a viable option at all?
Thank you so much!!

I think the problem is your example doesn't buy you much. It's only around 300-400miles from Rhodes to Athens.

If you leave morning on the 5th, sail all day on the 6th and arrive late afternoon on the 7th, it only buys you 1 day because even 1 minute during the day spent in the Schengen counts as a full day.

That's assuming they buy the argument that you left the Schengen area, which I'm not sure they will.

Now if you were going Rhodes to say Barcelona in one shot, it makes more sense but at that point two things come into play:
- More clear cut to pop 20miles over and check into Turkey to get clear evidence that you were outside the EU.
- You are blasting thru the Med, so 90 days likely isn't a serious limitation.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

This is why it would only become a problem if I stayed in the same port for to long.
But if I don’t, it won’t be a problem. My passport hardly ever even leaves my wallet when I travel. I have made 45 flights last year. Most of them international. And for most of them my passport never left my wallet.
See, I do not live in the EU, but I do live within the Schengen Area. Therefore when I travel to France, Italy or the Netherlands for example my passport is not checked, and there is in fact no record of me actually having left my country...



It is perfectly possible to be a non-EU resident, and at the same time a Schengen resident. I am one. And I know that many Swiss do successfully manage to avoid paying VAT on their yachts by periodically sailing out of the EU.

Sorry should have said "schengen" resident but while technically possible not many cruisers deal with Switzerland.

So if you are a resident/citizen of Switzerland or you cruise to Switzerland, there needs to be some clarifications.

But for typical cruisers "EU" and "schengen" can be used interchangeably for most practical purposes. If you replaced "EU" with "schengen" in my comments, everything I said is correct. If they decide to check they can find out and question your residency status.

What you are saying is basically, you drove 10mph over the speed limit and didn't get caught, so it's OK to drive 10mph over the speed limit because you won't get caught. You will probably get away with it most days but certainly no guarantee it will work.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But for typical cruisers "EU" and "schengen" can be used interchangeably for most practical purposes. If you replaced "EU" with "schengen" in my comments, everything I said is correct. If they decide to check they can find out and question your residency status.

If you are not aware of the crucial differences between Schengen and EU (and ¨customer territory of the EU", which is again a different concept) you will get in trouble.

What you are saying is basically, you drove 10mph over the speed limit and didn't get caught, so it's OK to drive 10mph over the speed limit because you won't get caught. You will probably get away with it most days but certainly no guarantee it will work.

No, what I am saying is that absent a means to register the speed of a vehicle handing out speeding tickets becomes rather difficult.

Again, if I make sure never to stay to long in one place I will not become a tax resident. I am currently in Denmark. You now know this. My GF knows this. The town I am staying in doesn't know this... Nor does my home town. How would they?

[nwdiver]

Alternatively........with the potential cost of multiple flights and your schedule have the boat delivered to Gibraltar, you and family spend 2.5 months making your way over, you then head to the Canaries with 2 weeks for prep.......

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

If you are not aware of the crucial differences between Schengen and EU (and ¨customer territory of the EU", which is again a different concept) you will get in trouble.



No, what I am saying is that absent a means to register the speed of a vehicle handing out speeding tickets becomes rather difficult.

Again, if I make sure never to stay to long in one place I will not become a tax resident. I am currently in Denmark. You now know this. My GF knows this. The town I am staying in doesn't know this... Nor does my home town. How would they?

You keep going off into the weeds on technicalities. You believe the authorities can't figure out how long you've spent in the area.

I'm certain they can. Since you are unwilling to be convinced by factual data, I'm done arguing it with you on the subject. Have at it.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You keep going off into the weeds on technicalities. You believe the authorities can't figure out how long you've spent in the area.

I'm certain they can. Since you are unwilling to be convinced by factual data, I'm done arguing it with you on the subject. Have at it.

He is fine as he doesn't need a passport to travel in the zone, the OP will have his passport on record as he has to enter Europe.......no matter what you say he doesn't get it........

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by nwdiver

He is fine as he doesn't need a passport to travel in the zone, the OP will have his passport on record as he has to enter Europe.......no matter what you say he doesn't get it........

He/they do need their passports to travel in the 'Zone' every time they go into a marina...
It may not get stamped but the details are still entered onto a central data base along with the vessel details.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

He/they do need their passports to travel in the 'Zone' every time they go into a marina...
It may not get stamped but the details are still entered onto a central data base along with the vessel details.

Many Schengen countries, for example the Netherlands, require visiting yachts, even EU flagged ones, to check in and provide full passport details of all non EU citizens on board, even if you are coming from another Schengen country. And the border guards come and see you, too.

We are boarded from time to time, at least a couple of times a year - once last year on the high seas! - and passports are always the first thing they check.

Don't even think about making a bet on their not noticing you and never checking your passport.