Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]Seem to remember an American couple who got their boat impounded in Portugal.. they thought spending time in the Channel Islands.. (Jersey to be precise..) put them out of Schengen Territory.. which it does.. however the authorities felt differently and stopped them in Porto on their way to the Canaries.

Are you sure that this was a "Schengen visa" isue, and not a "VAT" issue?

That the Channel Islands are not part of Schengen is pretty obvious. They are also do not impose VAT, but they are part of the "Customs Territory of the Union", which means you can't reset your VAT clock there, even though many people think they can.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Are you sure that this was a "Schengen visa" isue, and not a "VAT" issue?

That the Channel Islands are not part of Schengen is pretty obvious. They are also do not impose VAT, but they are part of the "Customs Territory of the Union", which means you can't reset your VAT clock there, even though many people think they can.

Either way it matters not other than to point out one's coming and going is noted.. and timed.

[hellosailor]

KVB-
An Executive Order doesn't have to be rational, or legal. Think of a draft notificiation. The big man says "You belong to me" and you say no, you don't. Well, if the big man says your citizenship was just *changed*...so where would you go to argue that?
Kinda like when the Brits dragooned US merchant sailors and we had to go to war in 1812 to change all that. Or the way the US has taken to unilateral boardings and seizures of fishing boats (smuggling drugs) in the international waters of the Pacific.
By all means, step up to the bully, but the point is, it only has to make sense to the man issuing the order.
"Comrade, you will join the Party."

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Either way it matters not other than to point out one's coming and going is noted.. and timed.

Coming and going across Schengen borders is noted.

But your movements within Schengen are not tracked. That is the point I am making here. And pointing at an example where where someone leaving Schengen and then returning somehow caught the eye of the autorities does not refute my point.

If I board a train in Zurich to go to Paris there is no paper trail anywhere that points towards me having done that.

[K_V_B]

[QUOTE=hellosailor;2567547]KVB-
An Executive Order doesn't have to be rational, or legal. Think of a draft notificiation. The big man says "You belong to me" and you say no, you don't. Well, if the big man says your citizenship was just *changed*...so where would you go to argue that?
[quote]

You miss my point.

If the Idiot-in-chief decides to make me a US citizen then my citizenship indeed changes.
It changes from "Belgian and Swiss" to "Belgian, Swiss and US"

I still don't see how that suddenly would mean I would have to leave Europe.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Coming and going across Schengen borders is noted.

But your movements within Schengen are not tracked. That is the point I am making here. And pointing at an example where where someone leaving Schengen and then returning somehow caught the eye of the autorities does not refute my point.

If I board a train in Zurich to go to Paris there is no paper trail anywhere that points towards me having done that.

That may be for a Schengen resident.. however as an EU citizen if I buy a ticket from Paris to Madrid then Madrid to say Barcelona I have to produce ID each time.. details entered in computer and ticket printed and issued.. same with any marina I enter.. Passport and ships papers must be presented.. also.. over the last couple of years police have been doing random patrols on trains checking ID's.. passports and ID cards..
No paper trail but a definite data trail.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Coming and going across Schengen borders is noted.

But your movements within Schengen are not tracked. That is the point I am making here. And pointing at an example where where someone leaving Schengen and then returning somehow caught the eye of the autorities does not refute my point.

If I board a train in Zurich to go to Paris there is no paper trail anywhere that points towards me having done that.

Only that is not actually true.

In 2016, the EU adopted a directive requiring airlines to provide to the authorities Passenger Name Records of all air passengers travelling to, from, or within the EU. This is in addition to Advance Passenger Information systems maintained by different EU countries, e.g. Spain and the UK. Belgium, for example, demands PNR data not only for all air passengers, but all rail and ferry passengers traveling to, from, or through Belgium. In some French airports (like NCE) you have to go through actual passport control coming from other Schengen countries. Car license plates are checked by video cameras and OCR and tracked by different national police. Yachts must check in when travelling between many Schengen countries -- e.g. entering the Netherlands, Sweden, Finland. The last couple of years, every single foreign flagged yacht entering Finnish waters from Sweden (both Schengen countries) was being boarded by the Finnish coast guard, for the purpose of checking passports of all occupants.

The Schengen Information System does not, so far, track every movement between Schengen countries, but can be easily expanded to do so, and there are many other means to track internal movements within Schengen.

The police in many European cities track people walking around using video cameras and face recognition software; London being the leader.

Big Brother may not be perfectly organized yet, but be sure that he is watching you. Free untracked movement of people within Schengen is a fairy tale.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][SIZE="3"]That may be for a Schengen resident.. however as an EU citizen if I buy a ticket from Paris to Madrid then Madrid to say Barcelona I have to produce ID each time..

Interesting. I flew within Schengen more than 30 times last year. Never had to show an ID.

The airports are not equipped to check ids. You enter airside through an automatic gate, where you just scan your boardingpass. Then at the gate you usually board through an automatic gate again, where your boardinpass is scanned another time.

At no time are you asked for an ID. And this is not a "EU citizen" or "Schengen Resident" thing. Everybody boards through the automatic gates, regardless of residency status.

It is only when booking a flight to the UK that I get requested to provide details of an ID or Passport.

details entered in computer and ticket printed and issued.. same with any marina I enter..

There was a bit of a brouhaha around that recently about the fact that Anis Amri, the guy behind the Christmas market attack in Berlin, was able to travel all the way to Italy without being noticed.
So it was decided to, as always after a terrorist attack, to pretend to do something about it. Not much will change, as anti terrorism measures do not have to be effective.

When in the 19th century railways were build across Europe the governments stopped requiring people to have passports in order to travel. Borders have been open since. Schengen only formalised what was de-facto already the case.

Passport and ships papers must be presented.. also.. over the last couple of years police have been doing random patrols on trains checking ID's.. passports and ID cards..
No paper trail but a definite data trail.

Yes, they do check that you have a valid ID. Having a valid ID is mandatory in many European countries. In Belgium for example the police can ask you to produce an ID at any time, without having to give cause.
But unless the officer asking me for my ID on the TGV from Basel to Paris has a photographic memory and wrote my name down afterwards there is no record that I did indeed travel from Basel to Paris that day...

And it is true that in many towns visitors are registered locally. So the town will indeed notice it if you stay 183+ days in the same marina. But that is not an issue if you don't stay a long time in the same place.

It is only at the Schengen borders that the ID is also registered in the SIS database. That database just keeps track of the fact that you are "in", unless you're a signalled criminal.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Only that is not actually true.

In 2016, the EU adopted a directive requiring airlines to provide to the authorities Passenger Name Records of all air passengers travelling to, from, or within the EU. This is in addition to Advance Passenger Information systems maintained by different EU countries, e.g. Spain and the UK. Belgium, for example, demands PNR data not only for all air passengers, but all rail and ferry passengers traveling to, from, or through Belgium.

In practice this system is however not working. And cannot work. It is a nice example of authorities pretending to do something about terrorism without actually doing something.

I have not had my ID checked at the gate for any flight within Europe last year. (and I racked up 39 flights in total, of which 33 to Schengen destinations). And even if they did check, do you really expect a gate attendant to be able to see the difference between a genuine and a fake passport?

For trains it is simply impossible to implement, as train travel is essentially anonymous.

The Schengen Information System does not, so far, track every movement between Schengen countries, but can be easily expanded to do so, and there are many other means to track internal movements within Schengen.

But are they relevant?

The main point I am arguing here is actually only this: Unless you stay in the same place for a long time you do not risk becoming a tax resident.

I never argued that you could or should risk overstaying your Schengen Visa.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

. . . .It is only at the Schengen borders that the ID is also registered in the SIS database. That database just keeps track of the fact that you are "in", unless you're a signalled criminal.

That is true -- so far.

But SIS is NOT the only database which tracks you and your movements within Europe!

They don't even need your ID! They now track your face!

https://www.euractiv.com/section/dat...brother-fears/

The technology is used MUCH more widely than what is described in this article, but it's not widely publicized.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

They don't even need your ID! They now track your face!

https://www.euractiv.com/section/dat...brother-fears/

The technology is used MUCH more widely than what is described in this article, but it's not widely publicized.

I know. And I don't like that at all. Even though as a non-criminal they aren't that much interested in me.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

I know. And I don't like that at all. Even though as a non-criminal they aren't that much interested in me.

The really scary thing is we really don't know why they might be interested in us -- non-criminal or not. Once they know everything about us -- how tempting will it be for them to use that information for God knows what purposes?

I can say, however, that I think our rights to privacy have better legal protection in Europe, at least Continental Europe, than in the States. Not that that protection is good.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

Interesting. I flew within Schengen more than 30 times last year. Never had to show an ID.

The airports are not equipped to check ids. You enter airside through an automatic gate, where you just scan your boardingpass. Then at the gate you usually board through an automatic gate again, where your boardinpass is scanned another time.

At no time are you asked for an ID. And this is not a "EU citizen" or "Schengen Resident" thing. Everybody boards through the automatic gates, regardless of residency status.

It is only when booking a flight to the UK that I get requested to provide details of an ID or Passport.


There was a bit of a brouhaha around that recently about the fact that Anis Amri, the guy behind the Christmas market attack in Berlin, was able to travel all the way to Italy without being noticed.
So it was decided to, as always after a terrorist attack, to pretend to do something about it. Not much will change, as anti terrorism measures do not have to be effective.

When in the 19th century railways were build across Europe the governments stopped requiring people to have passports in order to travel. Borders have been open since. Schengen only formalised what was de-facto already the case.



Yes, they do check that you have a valid ID. Having a valid ID is mandatory in many European countries. In Belgium for example the police can ask you to produce an ID at any time, without having to give cause.
But unless the officer asking me for my ID on the TGV from Basel to Paris has a photographic memory and wrote my name down afterwards there is no record that I did indeed travel from Basel to Paris that day...

And it is true that in many towns visitors are registered locally. So the town will indeed notice it if you stay 183+ days in the same marina. But that is not an issue if you don't stay a long time in the same place.

It is only at the Schengen borders that the ID is also registered in the SIS database. That database just keeps track of the fact that you are "in", unless you're a signalled criminal.

When you buy your airline ticket.. agency or online.. what information are you required to give..???
Also.. when boarding I have to have either my residency card or passport to present to the person at the boarding gate.. confirms the ticket holder is actually the one flying.
Within Portugal when I buy a ticket I need to produce my Residency Card.. same if I catch a train to Spain or France.. prefer to use that for train journeys as its in my wallet.. along with my credit card.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by boatman61

When you buy your airline ticket.. agency or online.. what information are you required to give..???

The airline has my name and address, and my phone number, as that is where they send the boarding pass.
If I book a flight to a destination outside of the Schengen area they also ask for my Passport nr. But only then.
And interestingly they ask for my Passport nr. every time, for each flight. I complained about that, but the answer was that they don't store that in my customer profile.
So flying for example to London and back I have to enter my passport number twice...

Also.. when boarding I have to have either my residency card or passport to present to the person at the boarding gate.. confirms the ticket holder is actually the one flying.

That has never happened when I flew on an intra Schenge flight. Most airports I passed through last year actually have automatic gates, where there is no person checking you at all. Just hold your boarding pass (or in my case smartphone screen) against the scanner, and you are let through.

Within Portugal when I buy a ticket I need to produce my Residency Card.. same if I catch a train to Spain or France.. prefer to use that for train journeys as its in my wallet.. along with my credit card..

I have taken trains in Portugal, Spain and France last year. Never had to show an ID. Not when buying a ticket, not when boarding, not when on board. Train travel is essentially anonymous.
They do pretend to scan your luggage when boarding at some stations in Spain, that is true.

[boatman61]

In that case I'll have to stop flying Ryan Air, TAP and Easy Jet.. in each case one has to provide passport number/ID card number, country and DOB booking on line.. or at the counter.
Who do you fly..???
Also.. they send the boarding pass to my email address.. which can be a pain if I'm in say Barcelona and going to Lisbon as I then have to go to an internet café to print it out.