Opinions Requested

[exitstrategy]

Hello Folks,

In this thread I am look for personal, biased opinions!

Currently we are in Martinique, and we are happy but a touch bored of the Caribbean.

Based on the passage planning books and articles I have read, we are planning on heading to Europe in May/June from the Virgins to the Azores (skipping Bermuda). (This implies that I am skipping the ARC Europe, mostly because it seems to push the season a little early.)

But once we get to the Azores should we turn left and head for Ireland or SW England or go to the Med?

Context:
Family of 5, two boys 11 & 15. We bought Ad Astra (L450) new in 2012 and outfitted in the Lovely La Rochelle for two months and then sailed to Porto.

We are interested in pretty much ALL of Europe. But despite having sailed down and across the Bay of Biscay I am feeling a bit comfortable and lazy in the trade winds anchorages.

So that gets to the question:
Should we head straight into the Med and enjoy the non-tidal anchorages? And all the rich cultural sites? Perhaps spending 1-3 years there? (Where to winter S Italy?)

Or should we stop in the British Isles and explore it during the sailing season and then perhaps we discover a marina with reasonable winter rates and spend the winter there in order to head into the Baltic on the next season?

Or explore the British Isles, but then head down to the Azores for winter? And then into the Med the following season?

Would love to hear strong opinions!

Cheers,
-Erik
Sail Ad Astra – To The Stars

[boatman61]

I'll assume from your name that your an EU citizen and not restricted by the Schengen rule of 90days..
Personally I'd spend a few weeks visiting the islands in the Azores before moving on.. if you head N to the UK you'll be getting there toward the end of the season so a winter berth will be easier to find as most boats lift out for the winter.. but if it was me I'd leave the UK/Baltic for next year and head for Portugal and the Algarve.. move slowly along the W coast of Spain visiting ports along the way.. maybe head up the Guadalquvier to Gelves and tie up there spending some time visiting Seville.. then back down river with a stop at Cadiz before carrying on down to Gib/La Linea for the winter.. rent a car to explore inland visiting the white villages of the Rhonda and Granada.. ferry trips across to Cueta and Tangiers..
Next Spring you can then decide to follow the sun North come March.. its a 36-40hr trip to St Vincent then wander up the W coast of Portugal (its 19c today here in Fig da Foz and sunny) and Spain visiting the Ria's from Baiona to Viviero N Spain.. a jump across the Biscay from there should see you in the Scillies/Falmouth in around 4-6days non stop if you pick a SW window arriving mid May in time to make the most of the summer.. from there its up to you how long you take..

[Stumble]

I would suggest trying to leave just a touch earlier. You really want to make sure you are across the Atlantic or very close to it before the start of hurricane season on June 1. Obviously it would be rare to have a hurricane that early in the season, but the consequences of being wrong are just too high.

[boatman61]

Regarding wintering in the Azores.. if you enjoy rain and gales I can highly recommend it..

[Hoofsmit]

Just as a heads up re the U.K.

Not the best place in the winter if you have got used to 28 degrees

You will have limited hall out and berthing options in the U.K. With a L450
And a lot of the nice and interesting things around the water close out of season at least in Cornwall !
and the weather can keep you port bound for a while over here which is not so nice if you find yourself stuck on the only berth that can take a 26ft beam ! Miles from any where or stuck in a commercial area

Saying that it can mean empty anchorages and can be beautiful between the next front

[chuckr]

I can only tell you what we did - like you we found the Eastern Carib a bit boring after a while so we left Antigua May 1 and made Azores 21 days later - we made a few mistakes along the way and it cost us a couple of days - We sail a Jeanneau DS 40 and did a 2 handed crossing

Like Boatman -- are you EU citizens or not -- Makes a huge difference

we spent a lot of time enjoying the Azores and if you can make Taracea for St John's fest it is something to behold and enjoy - from there we sailed to Portugal and on up to Cartagena Spain over the Balearics and down to Tunisia for the winter - it was a great place to winter over

from there we sailed up Sardinia to Corsica over to Rome and down the coast over to Albania up to Croatia across to Venice down the coast to Malta and back to Tunisia for winter - then up to Sicily over to Albania thru the Greek Isl to Athens thru more Greek Isl to Turkey - then up Turkey to Istanbul and around the Black Sea back to Turkey

Now planning next summer --

a lot depends on what you want to see and how much inland travel you want to do - as you can always go other places by land over the winter but the most important is Schengen

[yeloya]

I did this route in 2012 with my 43 ft catamaran. My thoughts;

-don't wait until May for leaving, I left in 1st April and always had excellent winds, nothing more than 35 kts , nothing less than 20 kts. It took me 14 days from Tortolla to Azores.
-it's good idea to skip Bermuda, I did the same.
-the routing is simple; you go north until you find the westerlies then you turn west. When the wind goes up too much you go south, if too light then you stir north.
-Azores are beatiful, I suggest that you spend some time there.
-If you want to head to Gibraltar, point a bit higher than normal. The winds are normally north/north easterly and the current is northerly. If you shoot for Gibraltar you may fall below Gibraltar and then you'll have to beat against current and wind. Pointing Lisbon and slightly turning south as you approach is the best way.
-If you want to make a stop in Gibraltar , go to LaLinea; the marina there is much better and cheaper.
-If you are in the Med in May, that's perfect. ıt's not overcrowded yet, the marina prices are a bit better and the winds are westerly most of the time.
-you won't have any problem in finding berths with yr cat anywhere in the Med with the exception of french riviera, but be prepare to pay anything from 50 Euros up to 150 Euros per night. Later in the season and in some specific places like Baleirics, it may go over 200 Euros easily.
-Carloforte in Sardegna and Catania in Sicilly are my favorite places. Palermo is a waste of time.
-For wintering Greece and Turkey are much better than Sicilly, plenty of options with better prices.
-Malta and Crete are worth a visit on yr way to East.
-And on yr way back you will cover Croatia and other places that you will have missed.

Cheers

Yeloya


-

[MarkJ]

I intend to leave St Martin very late May for Azores, then UK over winter, then the Med the next year. Works better for Shengen.

Mark

[robert sailor]

Unless you have a real great heating system on your Cat I don't think I'd enjoy a winter in Britain.

[exitstrategy]

Thank you so much guys,

Yes the name is German, but unfortunately my ancestors came over in the 1770s. So yeah, I am going to have to manage the Schengen zones. It seems like I have a few options:

1) Default - keep moving
2) Apply for long-term stay in France or Italy showing proof that we can support ourselves.
3) Apply for Spanish and/or French university visas
4) Apply for a German freelance visa

My assumption is that google is my best friend for exploring #2-3-4, and #1 you guys have the best experience.

It seems like the non-Schengen countries sadly are not the best for a boat in the winter (Ireland, UK, Ukraine)

In fact, I have been in Martinique a bit long now (69 days) and need to manage the clock a bit.

This is exactly the direct, thoughtful opinions I was looking for.

@chuckr - very nice program you laid out there. Wintering in Tunisia, I have seen this a couple of more times. I need to learn more about this.

@yeloya - I love your practical sailing directions, point taken on a little early. Maybe I will split the difference and aim for May 10 +/- 5 days

@boatman - thank you so much so so many great details.

All of your comments have been copied over into a google doc, where I am chopping it up to follow through on.

Truly thank you all!
-Erik

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by exitstrategy

It seems like the non-Schengen countries sadly are not the best for a boat in the winter (Ireland, UK, Ukraine)

There is also Turkey if you can make it to here before December..

Cheers

Yeloya

[exitstrategy]

Turkey does sound like a great option!

We are probably the only Lagoon 450 in the Eastern Carib that has 4 heaters and 0 airconditioners... ;-)

[tunc.aytunc]

I am Turkish and have been sailing in Med for many years. I honestly don't think that Turkey is a good option for wintering. Marinas are too expensive especially for a 45 feet catamaran. More and more turkish sailor are going to Greece for wintering

[chuckr]

Originally Posted by exitstrategy

Thank you so much guys,

Yes the name is German, but unfortunately my ancestors came over in the 1770s. So yeah, I am going to have to manage the Schengen zones. It seems like I have a few options:

1) Default - keep moving
2) Apply for long-term stay in France or Italy showing proof that we can support ourselves.
3) Apply for Spanish and/or French university visas
4) Apply for a German freelance visa

My assumption is that google is my best friend for exploring #2-3-4, and #1 you guys have the best experience.

It seems like the non-Schengen countries sadly are not the best for a boat in the winter (Ireland, UK, Ukraine)

In fact, I have been in Martinique a bit long now (69 days) and need to manage the clock a bit.

This is exactly the direct, thoughtful opinions I was looking for.

@chuckr - very nice program you laid out there. Wintering in Tunisia, I have seen this a couple of more times. I need to learn more about this.

@yeloya - I love your practical sailing directions, point taken on a little early. Maybe I will split the difference and aim for May 10 +/- 5 days

@boatman - thank you so much so so many great details.

All of your comments have been copied over into a google doc, where I am chopping it up to follow through on.

Truly thank you all!
-Erik

A few things to think about.
1. Unless you got something going for you getting an long term visa in the EU is really really hard. A lot of time and paperwork involved. We took one look and said no way. That is why we wintered over in Tunisia at Hammamet and had a great time at a great marina. And they do have a limit on staying over and if you do you have to pay a fine which we did as we stayed 7 months and it cost something 80 Tunisian dinar we think which is not much - and what a great country

2. Wintering over in the EU can be cold that is one reason we went to Tunisia as we don't like cold and now central Turkey. Some folks stay in Sicily or Greece.

3. Did you know the distance from Gib to Turkey is almost the distance from the Carib to Azores, about 2,000 miles. Did you know the distance from Gib to the Suez is farther than Miami to the Panama Canal? The Med is not a small pond and there is a ton to see. The sailing season is from say April to Oct or so. We stretched it to Nov last year and got very few weather windows on our southbound run from Istanbul to Kusadasi and got bashed a couple of times.

4. If you work at it a bit you can duck in and out of Schengen and be creative with you days and it can work quite nicely. but you have to plan

5. Be carful with leaving before May 1 as the fronts come across the USA and sometimes go deep south before going ne and that can create some real bad conditions - after May 1 the fronts can still do that but not quite as deep and not quite as violent - We were going to leave prior to May and had what appeared to be a good window and saw a front coming - looking at 3 different forecast and talking with Chris Parker we waited as the probability was 50/50 that the front would move south - it did - 3 boats left and3 boats were lost with crew -

6. If you do over stay and we have - the port folks really don't care. The only time we got a sideways looks was in Sardinia our first year when we were checking out and the customs guy looked at our papers and said "no Schengen" and we said si no Schengen and we smiled stamped our passports. But we did not check out in Malta as we knew we were way over but had visited a lot of countries so we had a lot of stamps and if anyone wanted to take the time they could tell we overstayed and Malta is exbrit and seem to want to check every i and dot every t so we sailed to Lambadusa and checked out there and the police had no idea what to think - it was so funny

7. Not sure how you included Ukraine in your list but maybe a look at the map and Ukraine is up on the Black Sea and a great country to sail to and you boys will love once they get a little older but a bit out of the way and yea it is way to cold to winter there - we have friends there and it is cold and very cold

8. Do not forget that it is 220v over here so get a big and I mean big converter there before you leave - we have a 3k one and at time wish it was bigger.

9. As for our plans and Turkey - i will refuse to comment on politics on any country we have visited and we have been to 45-50 - But we are watching and will see how things go - we also are watching the Greeks as they impose a cruising tax and if not to bad we will sail there again. SO - plan 1 is if everything is good we will sail from Kusadasi to northern Greece on a bash north and then work south to Crete and across back to Turkey for the winter. Plan 2 is if things in Turkey go south we will sail the Turkish coast south to Cyprus and across to Israel and the Red Sea and then up and around the northern Med down to Gib and Canaries and cross over in Nov -

hope this helps

[chuckr]

One thing - what are you using as a planning tool? We use OpenCPN with cm93 charts - it is a great planning tool and back up nav system if you have external gps for it -- You are in Martinique so someone there should have it if you don't - ask around