Any Experience with Hybrid Parallel Engine (Beta)?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

I didnt think I'd have to wait long to get corrected.

I agree with most of what you are saying.

When I said a 'school bus' alternator. I was not being very specific. They are actually 28si's large case 24v @ 110A. They are advertised for a variety of applications including school buses, trucks, earth moving equip, emergency vehicles etc.

Yes they are not so high output, but enough for my needs. But IMO simple and good value at around $200 new.

Yes you are correct about using the efficiency of using the Engine as a generator.

I also see many purpose made generators run inefficiently, at their one highish speed to get the required frequency under very light loads for often long periods. This is not an efficient way to operate. At least with our engine when demand is lower we can run at slower RPMs.

I guess it's a call on what we consider 'the lesser of 2 weavils'.

Good on schoolie alternators is they are made for low rpms, so yo will see around 80A charge continuously into an LFP bank and Immo cheap my first choice too if i move to 24V cheap and reliable. Its equal to the output of a balmar 12V 200A high duty which cost 5x more... Well and if you need more amps just put a 2nd schoolie alt on the engine...
Also if you have standard or optional engines they are just the bare minimum you need for your boat so you don't have much excess of power and a shoolie is using exactly that
If you use your diesel anyhow the additional power via alternator is nearly for free as excess from the engine.
Forget about sufficent regen via props on an e-engines unless you have a performance cat like an outremer or marsoudon, you are simply to slow... Yes you create some but not sufficient.

If you have 2 e-engines your gen supporting them will always see a big load and a big bank to recharge... This will not suffer from the issue of running to often under light loads. And gen is bigger means bigger injectors... So more reliable then very small gens and runs often.
Very efficient setup but costs 150% more then 2 new engines+saildrives...
Good for youtubers that get this sponsored to push this new technology but for the normal bluewatercruiser its simply too expensive to refit.
If from the beginning constructed and outfitted like on the HH44 cat with 2 beta hybrids thats another story. Well i am simply not wealthy enough to get a HH44 but if I would that would be my first choice

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well a standard diesel does not run efficiently as a gen. Like you want to do it you have a) uneven distribution of the weight, far back in the cat screwing up your balance. 2nd a diesel and a e engine have different power distribution curves=both engines won't run in sync and manoveuring will get much harder. The best solution is a gen big enough to support 2 e engines and each hull and electic engine. A genset will run in the opitmum range using much less fuel then your 50-60hp diesel, you can mount it more centered, getting a lot weight out of the ends.
You are having very light 3 cylinder engines 20 or 30hp, an electric motor+batteries+10hp gen weight about the same but you can distribute the weight much better, more in the center. If you calculate weight savings assume your battery bank is too small. Was talking to several providers. was in the process of buying a 36ft FP Mahe with damaged engines and was calculating all the options. (sale fell through at the end, cat had grounding damage before and not properly repaired)
Hybrid makes a lot sense if the boat is bigger like 47-50ft plus and you need 50-90hp engines because then you can combine a light 3cylihder 30hp with an electric engine as this will sav weight plus electric propulsion. And on this size you have enough room to stick 5kw of solar.
Small means till approx 40-42ft all recommended 2 e-engines and one genset plus as much solar as you can fit. The small 30hp 3 cylinders are very light and efficient nowadays, replacing them with e is an even weight exercise if done properly. Like this you just maintain 1 genny.
Well i went the opposite way, got a Lavezzi that normally has 2x20hp and mine has 2x50hp and replaced the lead banks with LI. No weight gain as the additional 90kg where balanced by moving the banks more centered and swap to Li. Cat does 14kn on WOT both engines and motorsailing 1 engine 1200rpm=1l per hour adds 2-3kn of speed plus runs very quiete. A no brainer to use the engine in this combination. Normal cruise motoring with 1 engine at 1600rpm doing 8kn and using 3l/h. My Lavezzi is light, only 8.5t and small hulls. Yes i am a sailboat and i sail whenever it makes sense, have 90sqm of sail with 8.5t and 40ft length so she sails well in even light winds but in real life you still use the engine surprisingly quite a lot.
E is ok for costal sailing but for bluewater crusing its not eficent enough and only possible if you stack in double the money then in diesel propulsion.

You have a few points here that I think are off the mark.

I agree that a 50HP diesel driving only a 10kw alternator load won't be as efficient as a dedicated 10kw genset, but I don't think this matters. The majority of the house and manoeuvring loads will be covered by solar, with the engine's charging ability there as a back up. The difference in fuel usage over a year would be negligible. Some proportion of charging will also happen while motoring, when the added load will bring the diesel closer to peak efficiency.

Weight distribution will be quite individual to the boat, but if I did it in mine there would be some additional weight but there would be no issue with distribution if the battery bank is placed carefully. Where are you putting your generator? Have you looked at how heavy a diesel genset that can support 2x electrics is?

The lightest 25kw gen I could find is still the same weight as 2 x 30HP diesels. That's before you add the electrics and the batteries. The only way a serial hybrid setup can weigh the same as straight diesel is with an undersized generator and undersized battery pack. The parallel setups I'm talking about will also weigh more than straight diesel.

The different power curves of the diesel and the electric is a non-issue. It will take very little time to adapt to. Manoeuvring a cat is already a non-linear thing because of the affect of wind and tide. We are all used to having to apply different combinations of engine on each side to get a given result.

I do completely agree that any hybrid setup will cost more and there is really no justification on a financial savings basis. The dollars saved in fuel use will never pay off the capital cost over straight diesels. The justification in my mind is the comfort and convenience of rarely needing to run a combustion engine.

P.S. I'm not sure why anyone puts 2 x 50HP in a 40' sail boat!

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Forget about sufficent regen via props on an e-engines unless you have a performance cat like an outremer or marsoudon, you are simply to slow... Yes you create some but not sufficient.

Even on a slower cat, the regen 24 hours a day on passage will add up. On faster boats like mine that will cruise in the high single digits to low teens the outputs are pretty solid.

My thinking is that if the regen can make up for the loss of solar when I have sails up, I'm happy. Anything more is a bonus. The ability to cover all house loads on passage on an overcast day will be awesome.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

So, pick this idea apart for me. My idea for the ideal setup in a catamaran is the following. Let's take my Mumby for example, that has a pair of 30HP diesels. In one hull, have a 50-60HP hybrid diesel (10kw electric) and in the other hull have just a 10kW electric + the battery bank.

You still have the range/power/duration of a big diesel should you need it (fighting off a lee shore, motoring when becalmed etc. You have the simplicity of only one diesel to maintain. You can use the electrics for day to day manoeuvring. You can regenerate from both electrics when sailing. You can change batteries at a high rate using the diesel. Weight will be similar, or not too much more than two smaller diesels.

Are there any downsides to this, other than it people getting the heebiegeebies because it's asymmetric?!

If you have 30hp 3cylinder and wanna put a 4cylinder 50hp in absolutely nothing fits and because engine is longer the new saildrive has to be moved too.
The former owner of my FP Lavezzi done exactly this 30hp Volvo MD2030 out, D2-50F in and the total bill was 67000Euro with a 30% discount on 2x Volvo D2-50 and 130S saildrives, so 20k for that and 47k to get both engines in. Bought it with 19h on the 50hp engines..
Due to connections with FP, FP supported that swap and delivered technical drawings how they have to be installed, where new motor mounts need to sit..... Huge effort, simply forget it. The owner of my cat where loaded and actually motorboaters, he wanted it that why and didn't care about costs.... And then sold the cat and got a Pershing 70 motorboat... My luck...

[JustMurph]

Fitting the larger motors will again depend on the boat. I reckon I'd get a 50 in just fine in mine. It's an idea better suited to new builds or major refits, rather than just a repower.

Interestingly O Yachts are offering this (one diesel and one electric) as an option on their Class 4 and Class 6, which they call Smart Hybrid. They're keeping the engines same sized though. The Class 6 (63') can have 2 x 80HP diesels, 1 x 80HP + 1x20kW or 2x 30kW electric + generator.

[Pegu Club]

Originally Posted by sailormed

"Sadly, it doesn't look like sea going yachts have really taken to this idea, ......."

Leo the boatbuilder restoring (rebuilding?) Tally Ho is looking into the hybrid Beta engine as power source for the restored Tally Ho. There is a video about the engine.
I do not know since when the hybrid Beta is on the market, but I think it is quite recently.

Leo has taken delivery of his hybrid Beta engine, he did an episode on it, looked pretty cool

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

You have a few points here that I think are off the mark.

I agree that a 50HP diesel driving only a 10kw alternator load won't be as efficient as a dedicated 10kw genset, but I don't think this matters. The majority of the house and manoeuvring loads will be covered by solar, with the engine's charging ability there as a back up. The difference in fuel usage over a year would be negligible. Some proportion of charging will also happen while motoring, when the added load will bring the diesel closer to peak efficiency.

Weight distribution will be quite individual to the boat, but if I did it in mine there would be some additional weight but there would be no issue with distribution if the battery bank is placed carefully. Where are you putting your generator? Have you looked at how heavy a diesel genset that can support 2x electrics is?

The lightest 25kw gen I could find is still the same weight as 2 x 30HP diesels. That's before you add the electrics and the batteries. The only way a serial hybrid setup can weigh the same as straight diesel is with an undersized generator and undersized battery pack. The parallel setups I'm talking about will also weigh more than straight diesel.

The different power curves of the diesel and the electric is a non-issue. It will take very little time to adapt to. Manoeuvring a cat is already a non-linear thing because of the affect of wind and tide. We are all used to having to apply different combinations of engine on each side to get a given result.

I do completely agree that any hybrid setup will cost more and there is really no justification on a financial savings basis. The dollars saved in fuel use will never pay off the capital cost over straight diesels. The justification in my mind is the comfort and convenience of rarely needing to run a combustion engine.

P.S. I'm not sure why anyone puts 2 x 50HP in a 40' sail boat!

You have several wrong assumptions in your post.. Did you ever talk to people actually having or tried them out? Its a lot theorie you are posting but real world looks different.
There is a reason Jimmy Cornell aborted the around the world trip with an all electric cat and stated it needs a big generator that can support both engines. I talked to Jimmy and the amount you would need to run this generator is quite a lot. Safety and also comfort was heavily compromised due to Jimmy not having this gen.
Regen was not sufficient at all, you are an all electric boat so you need more... And regen is not for free, costs you speed=travel time and on a slower boat that 1kn or more less compromises again the regen... Devil circles...
Plus 1kn less is 24nm less a day, an additional day every week on passage.
You don't need to put a 25kw genset to support 2x10kw engines, you don't need to cover WOT the whole time. I was quoted a 10kw gen is minimum, a 15kw optimum. Solar you need a 1000W for the boat itself and another 1500W to support this propulsion. Means real watt not wp where semi flexibel deliver 50% of WP if you are lucky...
This all for the 36-40ft cat below 10t weight.

Did you see the cost I posted just to fit one 50hp diesel... 23k and only yor diesel is in, then comes all the hybrid stuff on top.. A setup you want to do all in min. 100KEuro in reality. New diesels and saindrives would be 25k all in...

Why put 2x50hp in a 40ft cat: first because you are a motorboater, are loaded with money and having a cat with 2 broken engines+saildrives... Because you just can... FP actually approves up to 150hp in the CE document of the Lavezzi.

2nd: manufacturer just putting the bare minimum they have to and even the optional engine is often underpowered. Try to get a wall like a Lagoon 420 with 17t of a hammerhead with another cat infront you ahd 35kn from the side... You won't get it off...

3rd:having now this setup for over a year i actually think this is the perfect combo how it should come from the factory when coosing an optional engine. I love its advantages, having massive reserves when needed or wanted and the big engines saved my ass twice already.
The 8m rougue wave that hit me I could also minimize the damage by being able to manouver accordingly, with a 30hp absolutely no chance... And the 55ft charter boat next to me in that wave is she perfect example: they had no chance, got turned sideways while i could manage to keep it straight and they got the deck sweeper=lost everything above deck level, had no chance with thier standard 50hp engine.
Also comfort as engines run smoother and much quieter due to lower revs needed. 1 engine 1600rpm =8kn motoring with 3l an hour, just perfect. Wanna get somewhere fast or escape a storm, levers down 14kn gets you quick out of danger.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

So, pick this idea apart for me. My idea for the ideal setup in a catamaran is the following. Let's take my Mumby for example, that has a pair of 30HP diesels. In one hull, have a 50-60HP hybrid diesel (10kw electric) and in the other hull have just a 10kW electric + the battery bank.

You still have the range/power/duration of a big diesel should you need it (fighting off a lee shore, motoring when becalmed etc. You have the simplicity of only one diesel to maintain. You can use the electrics for day to day manoeuvring. You can regenerate from both electrics when sailing. You can change batteries at a high rate using the diesel. Weight will be similar, or not too much more than two smaller diesels.

Are there any downsides to this, other than it people getting the heebiegeebies because it's asymmetric?!

You still have single point of failure for propulsion. If the diesel dies there is nothing on board that can generate enough power for electric propulsion except for the reserve power left in the batteries. Under the best daylight conditions it takes 40 square feet of solar to continuously drive a 1 HP electric motor.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by NPCampbell

You still have single point of failure for propulsion. If the diesel dies there is nothing on board that can generate enough power for electric propulsion except for the reserve power left in the batteries. Under the best daylight conditions it takes 40 square feet of solar to continuously drive a 1 HP electric motor.

Very true. But that's still a step less risk than a mono hull has, which most would consider to be perfectly acceptable. As Q Xopa says above, you can mitigate a lot of that risk with maintenance and a good set of spares. But yes, it's a greater risk.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You have several wrong ....

Yes. I suppose part of the difference between your opinion and mine is that you're talking about heavy slow cats, while I'm talking about performance cats that actually sail.

Jimmy Cornell's boat had two major issues. The first was that it had only 1.3kW of solar. They probably would have been ok with a decent amount. Secondly, that he (obviously) had no diesel generation. A long distance cruising boat needs that (for now). Jimmy got caught out in the doldrums where hydro generation does nothing for you and 1.3kw can't keep up with an all electric boat (especially with sails up and shading panels).

Re loss of mileage per day, again, in a boat with decent solar, you won't be doing regen 24 hours a day. In a slow boat that generates <500W from regen, you will lose a lot less than 1 knot. There is plenty of real world testing to back that up.

If you want to be able to drive your 2x10kw motors at full power for an extended period (fighting off a lee shore in a storm), you are going to need to cover WOT demand, or at least come close. This is exactly why I would upsize the single diesel in my proposed parallel arrangement. None the less, 2 x electrics + batteries + a 15 kva gen = a lot more weight than two conventional diesels.

Re 50s being optimal, each to their own. Because I have a light weight cat (with 30s in a 48' cat), I do 14 knots with my sails, not my engines.
If I have more than 5 knots of breeze I'm sailing, if there's less I motor at 7 knots on one engine sipping 2.5L/hr.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Yes. I suppose part of the difference between your opinion and mine is that you're talking about heavy slow cats, while I'm talking about performance cats that actually sail.

Jimmy Cornell's boat had two major issues. The first was that it had only 1.3kW of solar. They probably would have been ok with a decent amount. Secondly, that he (obviously) had no diesel generation. A long distance cruising boat needs that (for now). Jimmy got caught out in the doldrums where hydro generation does nothing for you and 1.3kw can't keep up with an all electric boat (especially with sails up and shading panels).

Re loss of mileage per day, again, in a boat with decent solar, you won't be doing regen 24 hours a day. In a slow boat that generates <500W from regen, you will lose a lot less than 1 knot. There is plenty of real world testing to back that up.

If you want to be able to drive your 2x10kw motors at full power for an extended period (fighting off a lee shore in a storm), you are going to need to cover WOT demand, or at least come close. This is exactly why I would upsize the single diesel in my proposed parallel arrangement. None the less, 2 x electrics + batteries + a 15 kva gen = a lot more weight than two conventional diesels.

Re 50s being optimal, each to their own. Because I have a light weight cat (with 30s in a 48' cat), I do 14 knots with my sails, not my engines.
If I have more than 5 knots of breeze I'm sailing, if there's less I motor at 7 knots on one engine sipping 2.5L/hr.

Lignt Performance 48ft cat yes things look different. Thats not what majority has and discussing about here. Mine is not performance cat but lets say a light and well sailing 40ft cat in the 10kn region, can also sail with 5kn of breeze with the Parasailor or she roundsail. Then as I metioned on a performance cat regen is sufficent and with 48ft you have space for enough solar, 3kw should be possible with a combo of bifacials and some semi flexibles.
Why reinventing the wheel, would stick 2 Beta 30 Hybrid in if they fit and all good.
2 identical engines, identical spare parts, several backups.... Just take the HH44 and copy what they have. Better to use existing and tested setup then trying to reinvent the wheel.

[CaptainRivet]

And with a light performance cat getting imbalance and weight ih the back compromises the performance cat much more then an already heavy one. By adding weight front to balance supports hobby horsing,not what you want.
Even the 90kg additionally due to 50s in the rear were noticeable on my light 8.5t 40ft. And felt the change when moving the bank more centered and replaced with Li. Have the 2x300l water tanks quiet forward, left and right of the anchor locker and can use them to balance the cat. Keep it more or less on that level with the watermaker running daily.
Fully loaded for long crossings tanks are full too but during passage when provisions=weight getting lower I balance this with the tanks too by adapting the levels. . Should have even more impact on a performance cat.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

Very true. But that's still a step less risk than a mono hull has, which most would consider to be perfectly acceptable. As Q Xopa says above, you can mitigate a lot of that risk with maintenance and a good set of spares. But yes, it's a greater risk.

Yes all true, but a bit of Battery and elec motor power you have something. Something has gotta be better than nothing.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Lignt Performance 48ft cat yes things look different. Thats not what majority has and discussing about here. Mine is not performance cat but lets say a light and well sailing 40ft cat in the 10kn region, can also sail with 5kn of breeze with the Parasailor or she roundsail. Then as I metioned on a performance cat regen is sufficent and with 48ft you have space for enough solar, 3kw should be possible with a combo of bifacials and some semi flexibles.

Why reinventing the wheel, would stick 2 Beta 30 Hybrid in if they fit and all good.

2 identical engines, identical spare parts, several backups.... Just take the HH44 and copy what they have. Better to use existing and tested setup then trying to reinvent the wheel.

Sure, no arguments except for the cost of that. 1 x Beta Hybrid = lot$. 2 woooooah.

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Good on schoolie alternators is they are made for low rpms, so yo will see around 80A charge continuously into an LFP bank and Immo cheap my first choice too if i move to 24V cheap and reliable. Its equal to the output of a balmar 12V 200A high duty which cost 5x more... Well and if you need more amps just put a 2nd schoolie alt on the engine...
Also if you have standard or optional engines they are just the bare minimum you need for your boat so you don't have much excess of power and a shoolie is using exactly that
If you use your diesel anyhow the additional power via alternator is nearly for free as excess from the engine.
Forget about sufficent regen via props on an e-engines unless you have a performance cat like an outremer or marsoudon, you are simply to slow... Yes you create some but not sufficient.

If you have 2 e-engines your gen supporting them will always see a big load and a big bank to recharge... This will not suffer from the issue of running to often under light loads. And gen is bigger means bigger injectors... So more reliable then very small gens and runs often.
Very efficient setup but costs 150% more then 2 new engines+saildrives...
Good for youtubers that get this sponsored to push this new technology but for the normal bluewatercruiser its simply too expensive to refit.
If from the beginning constructed and outfitted like on the HH44 cat with 2 beta hybrids thats another story. Well i am simply not wealthy enough to get a HH44 but if I would that would be my first choice

A bit of thread drift sorry. But seeing you mentioned it.
Yeh got 2 alternators, one 28si on either side of the motor. They are an inch bigger in diameter, so you need a bit of extra space in your eng compartment. But the big case is as you say more output at lower RPMs and more efficient than the smaller case Alternators. They also have 2 internal fans one sucking from front, the other from the rear. With lots of openings and more metal so more cooling so they can be pushed harder without melting.

I also painted mine with the highest emissive Cerakote 'transfer grey'.

I also converted mine to external regulation and took the recitifers out and mounted them remotely connecting the 3 startor wires, which also open the airflow up, and removes another heat source.

I have also got the smallest pulley I could find to keep the fans speed up and have output more at lower RPMs. This actually decreases the efficiency a little because Alternators are more efficient at slower speeds. Everything is a compromise eh.

Fun tit bit manufactures spec the 12v models are 66% peak efficiency and the 24v is 76%. Better than a poke in the eye I reckon.

If you are up for a bit of this messing around these are IMHO very good bang for your $.

As you also say running your prime mover to generate power is always expensive clocking up extra hours on it. But so is having a 2nd dedicated diesel.

There are no perfect answers, boat eh.