Electric propulsion - stops or stalls - any experience ?

[carstendenmark]

You're fine Skipper !
Merry Christmas to all of you !

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Almost ALL conversions has been done, and will be done, by individual DIY's like me. No streamlined pro's to consult yet, unfortunately :-(

Check out Elco. They make an electric outboard that's a pretty streamlined installation for an outboard powered displacement vessel. Chargers, batteries and generators are all standard items.

Just don't fall foul of magic electric power thinking. Figure out the power you need and then design for it. Displacement boats are far different from electric cars. In cars, max HP of the motor is driven by the ability to generate low RPM HP. Since electric motors develop peak torque from zero RPM, they have much higher low RPM HP relative to max HP...net result is you can replace a 150hp gas engine with a 100hp electric motor and see no performance loss. With displacement boats, it's generally the steady state power demand that controls the HP rating of the motor, so electric or ICE, it doesn't matter...HP is HP when you are chugging along at a steady speed.

[The Sun King]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Thanks, Sun King ! Would you think, that choosing a controller aimed for double power output without fan cooling would have eliminated your problem ?

I consider a controller, geared for maximum power, or some more, so it runs smooth at normal operation, and with fan cooling, just in case.
A saying is (well, not in aviation), that doubling your size of gear will make it run forever.

A fan cooled unit will do the job fine, I guess, but are there anyone here who knows about a controller that is fresh water cooled (can use the same cooling water, that runs through my 18KW motor) ?
Just curious...

My controller and motor were both designed for much more power than I used. The controller was normally found in a metal case in the open air, providing good heat sinking. Mine was uncased and tucked away. I did use a bit of heat sink, but not enough. The fans I installed use only a very few watts, a fraction of an amp. I think they may be the equivalent of the fan in a basic PC power supply. I actually ran several hundred miles at reduced power until I could meet up with my wife who brought a car dash fan. That fan used a lot more power and was less effective than my current fans, but could also cool the captain a bit when angled right!


I have tried dozens of controllers and motors. Direct drive is the only way to go for efficiency and my motors have a ball on the end of the shaft to handle thrust. I use an oversize prop for better efficiency. If you need to turn slow, it is better to use a slow motor than a fast motor with gears. Vectored thrust is a must, in my opinion. My new boats will have two motors, one fixed and one steerable, giving all kinds of maneuverability.


Finally, I prefer an outboard configuration, even though inboard would be prettier and easier in many ways. I can clear a foul or check the prop without getting wet! Many outboards use gears and the typical tiny props. NO!



There are liquid heat sinks readily available for gamer PCs CPU cooling. You might look at those, though the bore is probably too small. There are some flat plate industrial sinks available, depending on your controller size. Many motor controllers, Curtis golf car controllers, for example, have huge ratings, but a closer look at the fine print and you will find that they derate rather quickly for temperature. I have a Yamaha with a 600 amp controller that will slow down and eventually stop, unless I am moving fast enough to get some air across it. I should put a fan on it, too. Read the fine print.



BTW, Herr Carsten, jeg har famile fra Fyn.

[MistyCat]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Thanks, Lee !
Where do you sail in Alberta ?

Batteries will get cheaper, even for quality LiFePO4's with BMS on-board.
Initially I'll run for a small bank, in an electronic setup so the bank can be expanded.
I am just cruising daytrips for now, and usually don't sail in very rough conditions.

It's a big job to replace a saildrive with a shaft drive !
So, first I will find out if I can convert the S100 saildrive, if it is still in good health.
It is supposed to handle up to 23 HP, so I think that will do.

Removing the horizontal shaft and the forward/reverse gear to the Volvo and use the vertical shaft by making an extension to it. Then the motor can be placed next to the shaft, toothbelted.
There will be lots of room when the diesel is out, so the batteries can be where it was. An extention bank can be installed mid-ship.

Basically I only need my motor for getting in and out of marinas and to get in position when anchoring. It is a SAILboat, not a motoryacht.
For a start I will charge by marina shore power, with a charger that can handle a genset input. We even have 400V 16A plugs, so I don't have to wait too long for a charge. Just need a charger and converter which can handle it.
As I'm saving on the batteries, I can afford a portable genset, perhaps a Honda EU22i. That will be nice to have to get moving in super-calm conditions (there are actually days with NO wind in Denmark), and at anchor to charge and electro cook.
She will then be a hybrid boat, put I'm not fanatic making a pure electroboat. Solar panels can wait. I can charge for several years from shore, for the cost and maintenance of solar panels.

Here are some shallow sandy waters, so I like a setup, where I can reverse her out of trouble by engine power, if I'm stuck. I need a motor which are capable of giving me a good burst of power !
Probably I can couple two 48V banks together for jumping to 96V, temporarily :-) ? The big prop in the setup will help too.
Just an idea...

Carsten, I'm really interested that you are considering driving your Volvo saildrive with an electric motor. I have been thinking about this - replacing my MDIIC with electric. The 110S saildrive seems fine, the engine itself not so much. The idea of using the vertical shaft to belt up to the motor would reduce some friction in the drivetrain, and of course the transmission is unnecessary - and it would greatly simplify the installation. As you say, the battery bank goes where the engine was. My project boat is a 1980 fibreglass cruiser (Niagara 35), 7.5 tons. Drive train is original. Everything else is new or reconditioned DIY in the past 4 years. I will be interested to see what you learn about using your existing sail drive.

[Ken Fry]

I have a few of the Mars motors like Thunderstruck sells. Simple, pretty solid. Some controllers, like Curtis, come from the fork truck world, so are well proven... sort of. Designs change over time.

Kelly controllers have been fine in my experience.

I have not found a BMS with which I am satisfied. This can cause a stoppage, generally not a big boom. I have had good luck with mine, but have had to sort through quite a few boards to find ones that work well... for now. Just not very solid designs.

Brushed motors are easier to jury rig, if you need to (if a controller fails). Will you need to? I doubt it. Is it wise to jury rig a motor by just feeding it power and standing back: no. But it is possible with a brushed motor.

Like others have mentioned, I would avoid a straight shaft coupling arrangement, and would want the shaft thrust taken my something other than the motor's bearings.

If you've worked with Warsilla, you might think "how loud a bang can this little stuff produce?" Very loud. Be careful to make dead shorts as impossible as you can.

[Wireless1]

Originally Posted by carstendenmark

Hi, electric boat owners !

I am soon going to make a conversion from diesel to electric propulsion.

Did any of you, with experience of this type of engine, have had engine stops or stalls when using the motor ?
If so, what was the failure, and the actions that you took ?


It would be nice to know what to look for, to prevent this to happen :-)


Thank you for your valuable replies, guys !

I ripped the old diesel out of my Freedom 32 (Hoyt design) by myself and installed the Electric Yachts "Quiet Torque 10.5" PMAC/SevCon controller setup. Electric motor stall? Nope. Always works? Yep -- so far!

I've had quite a few people tell me they worry about the reliability of the electric motor and they would never trust an electric motor as their primary source of propulsion for their sailboat.

To which I always reply; "How do you start your diesel?"

[carstendenmark]

Originally Posted by Wireless1

I ripped the old diesel out of my Freedom 32 (Hoyt design) by myself and installed the Electric Yachts "Quiet Torque 10.5" PMAC/SevCon controller setup. Electric motor stall? Nope. Always works? Yep -- so far!

I've had quite a few people tell me they worry about the reliability of the electric motor and they would never trust an electric motor as their primary source of propulsion for their sailboat.

To which I always reply; "How do you start your diesel?"

Spot on !

[carstendenmark]

Hi MistyCat, please contact me for the Volvo Saildrive conversion project on carstensemail@yahoo.com

[Skipper Lee]

I Froze up!
The more I read here on CF the stupider I feel, Again.
I'm normally a pretty capable guy but electrically not so much, This e-conversion has me frozen again. I thought I would just buy and install it and that's all folks. Installing the drive components was a dream no problem.
However there is apparently much more to consider and I need your help, Please!
I see so many graphs, read data that means nothing to me, and hear so many scenarios regarding charging that I just cant move and I wake up worried.
When I purchased my Thunderstruck 5 Kw kit I planned on inexpensive lead acid to get the 48 Volts.
Thunderstruck recommended that I buy their TSM2500 (non can controlled) 48 V charger. I think I hear the (non can) means I cannot change the charge outputs.
I wanted a simple setup where I charge up the Batteries with the TSM 2500 48 volt charger that I plug in at the dock (somehow wired into my new 8084 Blue Seas AC/DC panel, Not yet installed) and/or charge it with the 2000 watt inverter generator I also bought for charging at anchor if needed. I don't have room for much solar but will get what I can fit for the house batts as well as ANOTHER 12 Volt charger for those. Easy Peasy right? Not,
My best decision was to listen to the geniuses and smarter than me folks on CF forums(almost everyone) and not cheap out on batts. Thus now I just spent about 5K cdn on 6 G31 Fireflies. (2 house and 4 Drive) Jeepers, that's the same amount of boat bucks as the project boat cost me. I feel great about the decision but now wonder about the charger I have (48 V) and the other charger I need (12 V).

I asked Thunderstruck if the TSM2500 non can controller will work or if the TSM2500 Can enabled would be better.

They suggested that I don't get any advantage with the Can enabled feature if I don't change the batteries to another type and the TSM2500 non can is made for lead acid batts so it will work , probably be good, should be fine ETC. Yikes, But I did not hear it is great, perfect, excellent choice, wont kill your batteries or warranty! Crap. Now I am truly scared to proceed with potentially killing the Fireflies.
Anyone have experience with this charger and Fireflies?
What should I get for the 12 V bank charger? (simple dependable)
what should I have gotten for the 48 V bank? (simple dependable)

If anyone has time or could look into this charger and advise good or bad I would appreciate it hugely! I need to get myself calmed down.

I really and truly wish I could just go sand or polish something!

[Wireless1]

There are a lot of DIY guys on here that know a lot about installing electric propulsion and they do a pretty good job of figuring it all out. If that is your thing then I say go for it 100%. However, they can instill quite a bit of trepidation in folks that just want something that works. To the folks in the latter category; please don't be intimidated. There are more than a few companies that sell systems that have done the engineering part of it for you. I chose the Electric yachts system and as far is the DIY part of it? Removing the diesel out of my Freedom 32 by myself with no assistance (other than the yard crane to lift it out from the companionway), satisfied all the DIY needs I cared to spend. The rest of the install was easy and basically "plug and play". Though I did copy MaineSails wonderful design of the LiFePO4 "compression box" for my prismatic cells. But you don't need to get that fancy with it. See the photos on his "how to" website for reference. Good luck and go for it!

PS - I am in no way affiliated with Electric Yachts -- just a customer.

[Skipper Lee]

Thanks Wireless 1,
Electric Yachts and Thunderstruck both have/sell systems .
I chose Thunderstruck and its basically installed. You chose Electric Yachts. Fair enough!
Did yours also come with a charger?
Did they recommend one particular charger?
Does it work well?
Just looking for info about the best/most appropriate charging systems or looking for info on the TSM 2500 48 V charger as I have already spent the boat bucks on it.
And I really am looking for opinions about the best chargers for Firefly Batts from users of them.
I suppose I'll just hook up the charger I have if I don't get advice indicating that I should not use it.
I appreciate your comments but hope someone who has experience with charging Fireflies responds.
Cheers.

[carstendenmark]

Newyear's approaching.
Cheer up - the world is still spinning :-)
Ther is a new year coming !

I'l tell you a little story who was told me from a german sailor, who were docked in the marina, where my boat is located in Denmark.

They were a family, prepping for their trip back to Germany aboard their Dufour 35 DS.
Our neighbour, a berthed boat to the port side of us, was an old guy about 75+ in his small Grinde, a danish made sailboat, of age.

"He came to the boat and wanted to leave right away. Now. No words.
So he let go off his mooring ropes at the bow for a start, got them onboard, and did his way all back to the cockpit.
He sat down a minute to put on his life vest.

We waited for him to power up his diesel, but.. No (?)
No sequence for start up (?), no black smoke puffin' out, no smell...?

He just pulled a tiny little throttle to operate his what seemed to be his electro engine.
There were no engine noise at all, perhaps just a little whirr, or a hum.

Amazed, we saw him reversing, then to stop a bit, for leaving his mooring ropes at the pole tops, and with a short burst of reverse thrust, he went smoothly through the poles, still reversing.
Then, backed out, and after a few seconds in the mid waters, he abruptly reversed to forward, very fast acceleration to (the max of) 3 knots.
No sound. No smoke. No hazzle.

And as he surely knew that we were watching him very closely, he waved to us 5 "yawners" with a big grin, and he said something like "Uf' Wiederluege mitenand" (well, just in the local Lolland danish language of course, not schwyzertüütsch ).
Means in english : "Bye Bye ! See you again soon !"

This is not a story from the future.
This is the past.
And you can do so too !
Let's unite.

[Skipper Lee]

Thanks Carsten, I needed that.
I do overthink things. I presume I cant figure out what's best, therefore I cant.
I was told that it works, so it will work. Easy Peasy!
I probably can't get 2 people to pick the same charging device anyhow
Perhaps there is just no BEST WAY and that lots of ways will get it done.
BTW I hope you get back to your Maxi soon enough, It looks nice.