Is diesel-electric or all-electric the future?

[Corvidae]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...
A 10kW generator however costs and weighs more than a 33kW direct drive diesel with marine gear AND with an alternator big enough to supply all possible domestic needs. This one: https://www.northern-lights.com/m843nw3g/ costs $19 000 and in fact weighs 335kg, a third of a tonne, way more than my 100hp Yanmar. ...

Phasor Marine Generators K4-12.5KW
12.5kw I bought for less than $12k it weighs 20lbs more than a 100hp Yanmar turbo diesel, not including the transmission. Of course mine came with the enclosure. Also my one generator weighs 80lbs less than each of the two diesels I removed.

[Hyprdrv]

Corvidae,
The controller is a:
ADVANCED MOTOR CONTROLLER (AMC)
STI 3 phase (PWM) Brushless
100A40

The Charger is a:
BRUSA 144V 3 STEP CHARGER
MODEL #NLG 511

With the LiPo4's you can get away with a dumber charger, Brusa is pretty much at the top of the line for chargers (price to match). LiPo4 charging is controlled by the BMS system by Orion so the charger is "on/off". The EVIC monitor gives a visual display of the SOC of each battery as well as a percentage of the SOC of the pack. If I could figure out how to load a .MOV file I'd show you the Display.

Steve in Solomons, MD

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Now they need to find the power for the watermaker.

It is hard to believe with only 480w of solar and cruising northern latitudes that they have any power left over to devote to propulsion. They now have some regen to supplement their solar production, but on a 36 foot boat this is going to contribute little overall power compared to amount used when motoring under electric drive and will slow them down when sailing.

Their solution, which seems sensible, is to call into marinas frequently and replenish their battery capacity with shore power. There is nothing wrong with this answer. It would be great for many couples, but not all.

I thought they have 660W.
Even at 480W that’s 160-170Ahr/d when it’s sunny, plenty to live on with a bit left over to charge the batteries for motoring.
Any regen adds to that.

If they draw the battery all the way down motoring then it’ll probably take a week to get it back to full, sitting in a marina, less on passage.

Generally they use it to get in and out of marinas and anchorages and they’re back to full in a day or so even if shore power’s not available.

To make this work they pay attention to their weather windows.

If they could mount 1000W they could probably maintain 2kt 24/7 in calm conditions with sunny weather.

It’s all about adjusting expectations.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Even at 480W that’s 160-170Ahr/d when it’s sunny, plenty to live on with a bit left over to charge the batteries for motoring.

Not in Norway during winter.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Not in Norway during winter.

True.
For May 1 to Aug 30 at high latitude and year round in the tropics there would be plenty of power. Not many folks cruise high latitudes off season.

[Shaneesprit]

You simply cannot compare, plug-in hybrid to a marine environment unless you only sail from port to port to charge.
I wonder who funded that study? It’s possible it’s misleading, London no longer allows non plug-in hybrid to be registered as new taxis, what does this tell you? Non plug-in hybrids don’t work.
Although I am in favour of engines rather than electrical drive, Diesel is not the future, i am just not ready to be an early adapter, and loose my range

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by wingssail

One consideration which is not often addressed is the simplicity factor.

For us, as long distance (and long term) cruisers we opted for the most simple and most easily repairable overall system.

Breakdowns are a fact of life. On a cruising boat the owner/operator is often responsible for diagnosing and repairing whatever failed. The most simple system, the one with the fewest and most reliable components, and therefore requiring the fewest spares, is the one which I prefer. Either the diesel-electric or all electric have far more components and far fewer diagnostic tools than a simple straight diesel engine set-up.

Advocates of the all electric or diesel electric systems are optimistic to the point of foolishness if they think their complex systems which might (but not necessarily) run perfectly when new will continue to run perfectly for many years.

So we have opted for a simple, straight diesel engine, with electric refrigeration and gas cooking and otherwise very moderate electrical demands, a moderate 450AH battery and a couple of solar cells. Most of our engine use is for battery charging, but we carry 60 gallons of diesel fuel (surprisingly not stinky) and that provides at least 500 miles of motoring, if needed, and/or at least one month of total independence from shore or sunny days, should that happen.

That system is also the lightest possible system where moving significant extra weight has direct increased cost and dramatically reduced sailing performance, for anyone who cares about that.

So, for us at least, repowering to get away from diesel is contra indicated.

I could not disagree more. One person's "simple" is another person's "nightmare". Even comparing 2 brand new, perfectly functioning setups will yield different responses; some find changing oil, coolant, belt tension, raw water strainer, etc. as "routine" and "simple" while I find it onerous and dangerous. We had several instances of one of the engines or the other not starting, stalling out, overheating, shift linkage seizing, many at a time when it was not at all convenient or safe. There's exactly one moving part in a motor, and ours claim to have lifetime seals and bearings (we'll see...). I find batteries, even with BMS, and wire to be fundamentally simpler in installation and definitely simpler in terms of maintenance than any part of the very lengthy diesel power train from fuel tank/pumps/filters to rusting exhaust elbows, leaking shaft drive seals, and any of the myriad moving components/bearings that all must be functioning properly fo the thing to work. That said, if one depends entirely on others for service/maintenance of their setups, there's certainly still more institutional knowledge about fixing the very complex diesel than the very simple electric setup, but that, too, will change as EVs catch on.

There are perhaps still some reasons to choose diesel over electric, but simplicity really shouldn't be one of them.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Adelie

True.
Not many folks cruise high latitudes off season.

Yes, you have to a bit mad

We are not in Norway at the moment like Sailing Uma, but have not been below 56°N all winter. However, it is incredibly beautiful, so there are rewards:

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Keep in mind that their cruising is mostly marina hopping, where shore power is frequently used to replenish the battery bank. Many people prefer this style of sailing even if there are no power restrictions, but if you prefer long term anchoring I doubt if their system would work. The energy balance does not add up.

Still, they enjoy themselves . There are no rules; adopt the style of cruising that makes you happy.

If you have access to shore power every day to replenish a large battery bank, then electric propulsion absolutely makes sense.

[Kaimana]

Aloha Friends

This is just a quick note I'm tossing off on my way to work. I can find these links and post them later, but here's the basis for this post:

1. If you make solar panels in a factory powered by solar panels, that were made in a factory powered by solar panels, etc, they would cost ten times what they cost now. Solar panels are cheap because they're made with power generated from cheap oil and natural gas. Lookitup.

2. I've seen analyses that said a Tesla, fresh out of the showroom, has an "energy footprint" that is higher by 80,000 miles worth of fuel consumption than a new gas engine car with zero miles. In other words, it takes that much more energy to build a Tesla than a gas car. That isn't all:

When you include the cost of recycling and disposing of the Tesla's batteries when they're worn out at the 3-year to 5-year mark, the Tesla turns into a gas hog; over its lifetime, building it, fueling it, and disposing of the junk will use two to three times the energy that an equivalent all-fuel vehicle will use.

So which one is the energy-efficient vehicle?

TANSTAAFL!

Someone please show me where and how I'm wrong, and please include links by people like automotive and electrical engineers, not just your opinion on the matter.

Thanks!

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[Shaneesprit]

Kiamana
Sorry not going to find the posts and links, but batteries no longer have a 3 to 5 year life, reports are now saying that the batteries will outlast the car, and then rather than be recycled will be put to non range uses, such as powering your house with grid support. Lookitup
But in general I agree with much of your post, the energy market, the idea is to make sure you are clean and shift the blame elsewhere. Ala Prius drivers, who drive around in their hybrid, that consumes more fuel than a regular petrol and it has a battery carbon footprint. ( I can only quote from one Prius I have had the experience of )

[ghochgraf]

We are currently sailing this way, and can provide some real-time results. The basics: Irwin Citation 34, electric drive, 600 w solar, 300ah at 48v lithium batteries, propane galley.
We can motor all day at 3 knots, with about 300w going into the motor and 300w coming from solar.
But we're a sailboat, and much prefer to derive our motive power from wind. Most days we use a tiny amount of electricity for propulsion.
Lately we've been on the ICW through Miami/ft Lauderdale and there are a million bridges (I exaggerate) to wait for, then power through at near max for a few minutes. This is taxing on the batteries! Solar cannot keep up, and although we have space to double the area we have not done it yet. So, each evening we run a 2000 watt gas generator for about two hours.
Once we're free of all these bridges and have more favorable winds, we'll be able to do it all on solar.

This boat is up for sale. We have plans for a larger one, and based on our real-life experience, will opt for a hybrid system, with both diesel and electric drive onto the shaft, lots of solar, and lots of lithium. Galley will be combined propane and electric.

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

Aloha Friends

This is just a quick note I'm tossing off on my way to work. I can find these links and post them later, but here's the basis for this post:

1. If you make solar panels in a factory powered by solar panels, that were made in a factory powered by solar panels, etc, they would cost ten times what they cost now. Solar panels are cheap because they're made with power generated from cheap oil and natural gas. Lookitup.

2. I've seen analyses that said a Tesla, fresh out of the showroom, has an "energy footprint" that is higher by 80,000 miles worth of fuel consumption than a new gas engine car with zero miles. In other words, it takes that much more energy to build a Tesla than a gas car. That isn't all:

When you include the cost of recycling and disposing of the Tesla's batteries when they're worn out at the 3-year to 5-year mark, the Tesla turns into a gas hog; over its lifetime, building it, fueling it, and disposing of the junk will use two to three times the energy that an equivalent all-fuel vehicle will use.

So which one is the energy-efficient vehicle?

TANSTAAFL!

Someone please show me where and how I'm wrong, and please include links by people like automotive and electrical engineers, not just your opinion on the matter.

Thanks!

With Warm Aloha, Tim

I believe these numbers were dated (and wrong) when they were first published in the early 2000s. From 2015 study by scientists:

https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-neal...-emissions-953

less than 50% the global warming emissions of gas cars even accounting for higher emissions to produce, which is becoming less and less true. Plus, owning an EV means it's "emissions" constantly reduce with age as the grid that supplies it switches from non-renewable to renewable sources; your gas car just gets dirtier and less efficient with age.

[Corvidae]

Wow, I love seeing the variations in drive set ups. The wiring difference really gets me. Running at 48v I'm pulling 3x the amperage to do the same work. Makes me think your setup runs a lot cooler than mine does too. I'm just starting to see a bunch of stuff get to market at 48v, but now I'm wondering if the higher voltage setups might be the way to go. There's definitely a premium on the inverters/chargers, the lower amp wires are a lot easier to work with, but I don't think the savings really makes up for the premium on the rest of the gear right now. I'm assuming you're using air cooled motors too?

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Corvidae

Wow, I love seeing the variations in drive set ups. The wiring difference really gets me. Running at 48v I'm pulling 3x the amperage to do the same work. Makes me think your setup runs a lot cooler than mine does too. I'm just starting to see a bunch of stuff get to market at 48v, but now I'm wondering if the higher voltage setups might be the way to go. There's definitely a premium on the inverters/chargers, the lower amp wires are a lot easier to work with, but I don't think the savings really makes up for the premium on the rest of the gear right now. I'm assuming you're using air cooled motors too?

60v is the dividing line between high and low voltage. It has regulatory implications.

48v will charge in the mid to high 50v range but is unlikely to break 60v except under exceptional circumstances. That's why so many systems are 48v.