Is diesel-electric or all-electric the future?

[topmast]

Good conversations. Came across a you tube.might find its concepts interesting ..Jay Leno shows off his 1916 Owen. A gas/electric hybrid. Engineering actually from late 1800's So think I. A smaller (30-50?) hp diesel with an electric clutch on the flywheel (#1) driving the rotor/gen like in a Tesla. Shaft couples to a reduction gear box thru an electric cutch.(#2). Prop shaft has controllable variable pitch prop All this in a single elongated housing Would look like a fat Borg Warner72. In operation .both clutches engaged, engine drives prop and charges battery bank.Disengage #2 to only charge. #1 disengage and prop is driven by rotor or battery charges by prop under sail. Electronic 3 phase controls would make it appear simple in operation. The Owen's speed control was a bit of primitive tech sorta like the knob on an older Mixmaster so ...Don't snicker, this may be the future

[Simon.Sails]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

Aloha Friends

This is just a quick note I'm tossing off on my way to work. I can find these links and post them later, but here's the basis for this post:

(...)

Someone please show me where and how I'm wrong, and please include links by people like automotive and electrical engineers, not just your opinion on the matter.

Thanks!

With Warm Aloha, Tim

You're reversing the burden of proof here Tim. You're making a lot of big claims without any actual sources, I don't think it's our job to debunk them.

[LargeMarge]

Safety.

I travel with a lot of commercial-rated fire-extinguishers.
I travel with PFDs and several ways to float if my floating home goes under.
I travel with at least two ways to make drinking water.

The technology to operate a road-based vehicle is mostly pretty good most of the time.
One reason we plod-along with our ancient AGM bank instead of switching to the darling dujour Lithium -- our AGM always work.

Similar to electric vehicle tech, I am patiently waiting for Lithium tech to mature.
Although I wish I could plug-in my electric motor to avoid those rocks or speed around that weather or those pirates, I harbor doubts about reliability.

*****

I also harbor doubts about my 'normalcy bias', my unreliable attempts to wish-n-hope everything will stay the same... despite all evidence to the contrary.
Although I wish I could return to a pre-2020 'normal', I think a lot of convergences are conspiring against that possibility.

Writing this early-April 2021, I think our next few weeks/months are utterly unpredictable, so I think hoping for a continuation of 1970-80-90 and the first nineteen years of the new century is delusional at best, self-destructive and sabotaging at worst.

I would like to see tech focused on recreational boating instead of surveillance and drones bombing opponents of TheRegime, but my imagination tends toward realistic rather than believing anything from TheMainStreamMedia or TheMalignantOverlords.

I hope I am proved wrong.
I am planning in case I am right.

[bowa]

Hi youall,
a very interesting thread this. I was just about to buy a fast (ex racing) catamaran and wanted to refit it for a world cruise. To squeeze most W and propulsion out of each litre of fuel was my foremost desired outcome of this refit, but I do want my daily fresh bread..and cake...and icecream....al screaming ...KW!!.
I have been folowing the relevant tech innovations for a while, got quotes from various known and not so well known hybrid or all electric companies.
If you look at a boat with good lightwind capabilities..a light one..and compare it to a heavy laden cruiser...you would need different setups.
But for both, light cat and heavy cruiser, I would think a parallel hybrid motor/generator of between 10-20 kW /5 -10kW linked to the only drive motor as a house generator AND low speed motor is the cheapest most versatile setup.
Incase of the catamaran, I wld install a pure electric motor in the 2nd hull.
Both could produce Wh while sailing, the Cat obviously has the edge here due to higher speed.


As to batteries, one can get 10kWh with bms and cooling fan in a nice aluminium tray for 3000$.



And if one keeps the old genset, well at least with LiFePo batteries one can charge the best part of capacity with 1C..which, if the battery cap is big enough will keep genset running in its best efficiency.


The LiFePo batteries with their high recharge capacity makes the biggest impact. 10k$ gets you 30kWh for a few days on the hook.


Purely serial hybrid hardly makes sense....a Cat reequipped with serial hybrid from an above mentioned Manufacturer would cost over 120k..EUR....only material


But..theres a brake-through imminent, a tech thats been tinkered with for a long time..only now, with powerfull magnets and controlling electronics..it became feasable..
the linear freepiston generator....a few big names are working on models for powerstations and vehicle range extenders.
Powerstations are up and running in USA, Cal...others engines in very compact designs to fit next to batteries in floorpans of e-vehicles.
To give an example, an app. 50kW unit is 15 x 30 x 80cm...peaks at 75kW....has a thermal to el. efficiency of over 45%!!!
Compare the best CommonRail small diesels, they hardly get to 40% mostly at 35% to 37%%. Then you have to add generator losses of 20% to 5% depending on type.


These commpact gensets could be mounted under a cats hull floorboards....

As the have only the free swinging pistons as moving parts they may turn out super reliable too.. Basically the size of a waterpurfier.
The better efficiency makes up for el.transmission losses in todays system, and serial el. would be a must, as nor motion...torque to power a prop is created...
Anyone out there know more about this?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Corvidae

What charger and motor controller are you using? I keep thinking about going to a 96 volt setup, hadn't even considered 144v. I keep reconfiguring what I could do in my head. The current system works great with 10kw motors at 48v, but always looking at how I could upgrade.

You are in a humid environment, 48V is already borderline regarding electric shocks and safety with the amps you are running.

Yes i have 230V on board with inverter too but low loads and fi + inverter will shut off in a case of a short or electric shock. Your 96 or 144V pack won't

[Corvidae]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You are in a humid environment, 48V is already borderline regarding electric shocks and safety with the amps you are running.

Yes i have 230V on board with inverter too but low loads and fi + inverter will shut off in a case of a short or electric shock. Your 96 or 144V pack won't

Hey, we're on a boat with elemental lithium. There's a level of risk already assumed to end in fiery death.

Although having accidentally brushed a sweaty back against that 48volt system, I was very glad it wasn't higher voltage. It was very motivating for some better cable management.

[MichaelPrichard]

Originally Posted by Corvidae

Wow, I love seeing the variations in drive set ups. The wiring difference really gets me. Running at 48v I'm pulling 3x the amperage to do the same work. Makes me think your setup runs a lot cooler than mine does too. I'm just starting to see a bunch of stuff get to market at 48v, but now I'm wondering if the higher voltage setups might be the way to go. There's definitely a premium on the inverters/chargers, the lower amp wires are a lot easier to work with, but I don't think the savings really makes up for the premium on the rest of the gear right now. I'm assuming you're using air cooled motors too?

Not sure if this was directed at me, but I'll chime in anyway! I would've loved to run at higher voltages for the increased efficiency and smaller wire size, but there's just so much equipment at 48V and I do like the safer level. It's certainly still more dangerous than 12v or 24v but a lot safer than 96-144VDC. It also allows one to increase the battery size more incrementally since a series chain of 12-14 Li cells is a smaller "quanta". I'll have 4 parallel strings of 12 cells (2x Tesla 24v modules) which I can add to in chunks of $2200 (currently just 2 @ 21.2kWh).

As for current draw, I've only pulled around 95A through the 2/0 cables at max throttle so far, although with both motors pulling this amount, the pull from the battery cables was ~190A and the voltage drop was probably around 0.6V, so I could probably benefit from doubling up the 2/0 cables to the battery. But at 5kW total (2.5kW each motor) the currents and V drop are all pretty reasonable.

The POD drives I'm using are "water cooled" by the sea they're immersed (no plumbing) in but the inboard equivalents are water cooled by actual coolant.

[Kaimana]

Originally Posted by Simon.Sails

You're reversing the burden of proof here Tim. You're making a lot of big claims without any actual sources, I don't think it's our job to debunk them.

I wrote this post hoping for more links and references back; this is an awesome thread, but there are too many elusive posts containing "this does that", and "45% efficient generator...." references with no way to pin them down and confirm by reading the original documentation.

My purpose was to stimulate discussion and have all you knowledgeable types post links that we all could refer to. My stuff may be dated; I did that research ten years ago for a position I no longer hold. But I believe it was accurate and correct at the time.

I've been in the alternate energy sphere since I built a 4-foot diameter, 3-bladed wind generator for my SeaRunner 37 in 1975, by rewinding a 30-amp tractor alternator to put out at 1/3 the speed, then geared it up 3:1 with a Dayco Cog Belt drive system. It was in an aerodynamic housing that tilted on a horizontal axis to spill wind when it got to 20 knots, where the machine maxed out at 24 A, 15.5 V output.

It supplied its own field current in 6 knots, charged at 5 amps at 7.5 knots, and auto-reefed itself using a vertical pilot vane, so you could set it and forget it.

You could "furl" it from 20 feet away in the cockpit with a line, so that the blade axis was tilted vertically, and in that position it could handle 80+ knots easily. At least that's the most I ever had it in. I don't like lots of wind.

With Warm Aloha, Tim

[jeepers]

I have been watching this thread with some interest......
Currently in the office we have an interesting project/concept.
In fact we have a couple of such projects.
I am limited by an NDA of what I can divulge. However,
The project is a 70+ ft schooner that is in need of a major refit. The 2210lb- 180hp. diesel & 400lb transmission is coming out and needs replacing with new. At as new, cost of $60k for a single engine pkg. (220-250hp.) or $85k for dual engines pkgs.(140+hp. ea.) Plus incidentals. Labour extra. ++

Potential,
Electric replacement is being considered as thus.
Single electric 190lb./217hp. motor( transmissions not required)or dual 175lb./107hp. or dual 180lb./147hp. motors. The motors come with AC/DC inverters & DC chargers. This equipment is all water cooled.
The batteries will total between 400-600kWh. (This may increase to 950-1000 kWh, just by battery/BMS/computer manipulation) To put this in perspective. I've been told... FWIW. The top of the scale (600) is equal to or more than the battery capacity in most WWII Uboats.
The total battery weight of 8500+ lbs can be displaced by removing ballast.
With more ballast to spare.
Batteries are air cooled and (possibly) available water cooled.
The shaft drive is with (tentatively, initially) 28x20 prop(s). This strongly supports dynamic regeneration at all speeds, especially over 4 knots and at greater values at faster speeds.
Water regen is expected to provide 1500-8000 watts.
Wind power generation when wind available from 4 turbine units at a minimum of 1.0 m/sec (differential) and greater. Is expected to provide 1500-5000 watts.
The aft deck cover will support between 4000-7000 watts of solar.
NB. The aft deck cover is very similar to the Youtube project boat "Yaba" but larger.

Motoring to be supported for 16 to 24 hours continuously.
(120nm-190nm range)

There is provision for an optional 12kw generator that uses non fossil fuels for continuous charging when needed.
(The above described 12kw generator is not included in the following charging rates.)
Total recharge from 20% to 85% expected to take 36-48 hours. It is expected the battery top up, 85% to 95+% to take a further 36-48 hours.
Approximately..
The NOS. electric motor, inverter & charger packages are $1000-$1500 ea.
The NEW electric motor packages are $4500-$7000 ea.
The NOS 24kWh battery packs supposedly are 48kWh capacity are $2500ea.

Dual motors pkgs.$2500-$9000 Single motor pkg.$7000
Batteries $42,700-$62500.
Battery boxes, ventilated; $8,000-$15,000
Solar panels $2000-$5000.
Wind turbines $4000
Other costs applicable to both diesel & electric
Conversion from single to dual cost $15,000
Also lightning strike mitigation.
Labour extra.

NB. FYI... On Youtube channel "SSL" They have air conditioner(s) that run off their solar panels on a 55 ft Jeaneau. This was upgraded in the last couple of episodes.

The future may lie with aluminum batteries that supposedly in trials provide 16x's the range of like sized Lithium batteries. For boating the sacrificial aluminum plate & water can be removed for storage. Lithiums will be upstaged sooner than later.. eventually.

[Corvidae]

Wow, that's on the larger side of sailing systems. I'd be real curious how it does trying to push along in a doldrum with only 12kw squeezing through a something size battery charger. I manage 5 knots myself, but at probably half the displacement.

[jeepers]

Originally Posted by Corvidae

Wow, that's on the larger side of sailing systems. I'd be real curious how it does trying to push along in a doldrum with only 12kw squeezing through a something size battery charger. I manage 5 knots myself, but at probably half the displacement.

A good question, and was proposed at the beginning of concept/discovery.
As what was the sustained motive capabilities?
A larger (than 12kw) Biodiesel generator was considered. While not dismissed. It was politely waivered/deferred. Multiple generators has been proposed as well as multi-fuel options. Which always becomes & rightfully so.. Why don't we just use that mode as the accepted, installed, everyday mode. Answer; Because it is not acceptable nor accepted.
(Since then we have gotten to know the Owners much better. They are not Eco warriors. Individually have their own initiatives and interests. Their individual paths have directed and positively developed the project immensely)
As such, we are still pursuing this question and others, as you will see..

To clarify the specs & projections;
Each motor has an AC/DC inverter and a DC charger. When combined (dual motor) or singular (motor) can provide from short 150kW Blast/Fast charges to 100kW Rapid charges. That is what the equipment can handle/provide. The batteries can handle 8-10x's these rates.

The OFFgrid charging rate is projected at 20kW. That is, in our jargon, referred to as a ("middle" of the) Pacific sailing charge. There is a possible/optional additional 12kW auxilliary combustion engine powered charger. For a potential of 32kw max offgrid. Or 22kw** of "Doldrum power". (**+Enhanced solar generation.) Which converts to 30 horsepower. On which alone 2.5-3 knots, maybe 4 knots sustained during daylight hours. When becalmed (doldrums) you would or could reduce the power draw to 4-5 knots hull speed for 3+ days for 300+nm way. This extends distance covered as well as stress relieving apparent motion.
The charging projections are essentially conservative estimates. They may be individually higher or lower. Regen by dual 28" diameter props (@ 1400 rpm) at 10-12 knots at present is unknown/uncalculated.

Propulsion is provided by a single motor of 160kW/217hp. Or dual motors, totalling 160-220kW/214-295hp.
In Corvidae's reply posted above.. "how it does trying to push along in a doldrum with only 12kw" .... Funnily.. There is "planned" to be. 2-4 e-bikes aboard that are rated individually at 14kw (18hp.) Mountain styled "bicycles".
Scale of scope. Or is it? Scope of Scale. ie. Perspective.
A 35' sailboat is half the length of this 70' Schooner. A 35'sailboat is generally rated (approximately) 13 Tonnes. This Schooner is rated at 65 Tonnes which is 5 x's the (volumetric) rating.

Todays update; The P/O (Principal/Owner) wants to know what is involved by installing dual motors for a total of 320kw/435hp? What will it do?
My answer; About $35k++ extra. It will pull a few wake/boogie boarders and/or eventually a couple of water skiers up onto plane. With some hull "wrap", additional machinery isolation and balancing of reciprocating mass. It will get attention on the ocean as being "quieter" than a nuclear submarine.

[bowa]

Dear Kaimana, I apologise for not mentioning infos to verify these 45% efficiency infos.
1.Mainspring Energy, USA
(these seem to have some gensets of 250kW running in fieldtests and seem to be very content with outcome)
2. DLR research institute and the spinoff SWengin GmbH , these seem to be in exp. stage still.
3. then chk TOYOTA linear generator


further chk LiSulphur batteries, you will find a UK company claiming to produce them @ cheaper than Li battery cost...and 3 to 5. x capacity. In spite of mentioning cheaper production, no price /kW is quoted


rgds

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Kaimana

... I can find these links and post them later, but here's the basis for this post:
... 2. I've seen analyses that said a Tesla, fresh out of the showroom, has an "energy footprint" that is higher by 80,000 miles worth of fuel consumption than a new gas engine car with zero miles. In other words, it takes that much more energy to build a Tesla than a gas car. That isn't all: ...

Please do, when you get the opportunity. I'd be very interested to see such evidence.

[bowa]

Il make this short:

you can estimate your expected regen quite accurately with the following:
Take the actuator disc, prop swept area in m² call it A.
multiply by saltwaterdensity/2 is 515kg/m³ call ro

multiply by speed³. v³=5³ m/s =app. 10kt
gives you energy in W of waterbody passing thru.
multiply w prop efficiency coeff. about +/- 0.35

and again by factor +/-0.3 ,this factor was established by norwegian tow testing of a 100ft hybrid brig to establish best propchoice for regeneration, in fact 0.28 to 0.34


So you get around 3- 2.7kW as a figure at proplevel.


Not sure but the bedt waterprops get around 0.5



Aeroplane propblades with their much higher aspect ratio can reach .9. but a typical cessna prop should be around .75 to .8.
S

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by bowa

Il make this short:

you can estimate your expected regen quite accurately with the following:
Take the actuator disc, prop swept area in m² call it A.
multiply by saltwaterdensity/2 is 515kg/m³ call ro

multiply by speed³. v³=5³ m/s =app. 10kt
gives you energy in W of waterbody passing thru.
multiply w prop efficiency coeff. about +/- 0.35

and again by factor +/-0.3 ,this factor was established by norwegian tow testing of a 100ft hybrid brig to establish best propchoice for regeneration, in fact 0.28 to 0.34


So you get around 3- 2.7kW as a figure at proplevel.


Not sure but the bedt waterprops get around 0.5



Aeroplane propblades with their much higher aspect ratio can reach .9. but a typical cessna prop should be around .75 to .8.
S

The design of blades to extract energy from wind differs from the design of blades to propel a vessel or aircraft.