Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by wingssail

To be honest with you, that trip would have been a lot more fun (in fact it could have been a great sail with good wind and flat water) with a boat with great windward performance. Put the dingy on the foredeck, and dress warmly.

We sailed in places and conditions like that for years on the coast of Vancouver Island or inland in the fjiords there, and loved it. We had a diesel motor when we wanted it, good heat and lots of excellent sailing.

+1 to a great sail

Their boat looks like it would be good to windward. Is the impact of towing the dinghy that huge?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

+1 to a great sail



Their boat looks like it would be good to windward. Is the impact of towing the dinghy that huge?

Maybe also the prop regenerating?

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

+1 to a great sail

Their boat looks like it would be good to windward. Is the impact of towing the dinghy that huge?

Towing the dinghy on a long line adds drag and combined with solar panels on an arch, sprayhood, dodgers and all the other stuff we need to survive 50'N, takes its cumulative toll on speed and pointing ability.

We notice the the drag on ours if we tow on a long line. Instead we pull up the bow on to the pushpit rail if we are going to tow a short distance in calm weather. Anything more than a couple of miles and we take it apart. Its a small 2.7m flat bottomed dinghy so easy enough to lift on board by hand and squash flat.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

+1 to a great sail

Their boat looks like it would be good to windward. Is the impact of towing the dinghy that huge?

Their boat, a Pearson 36, should be a good windward boat. It is a fin keel skeg rudder of early IOR influenced design, yet the track on their plotter shows otherwise: tacking angles of something well over 90 degrees. Perhaps the sails are not great, probably there was in incoming tide in the fiord which makes the tacking angles look bad. I just don't know.

But it’s not the dingy. Towing a dingy IS a hindrance, but it is not huge.

When it comes to performance it is usually not one thing which causes a boat to perform badly, it is the accumulation of many smaller things. Cruisers add a lot of gear and make changes to enhance cruising, changes which affect the balance of the boat, add windage, put weight where it should not be, and then they say about each item, “It doesn’t make that much difference.”

But the total does make a difference.

Edit: It's not the sails. Re-looking at the video, the sails look good. Some performance lost by using a partially furled genoa, and, yes, it is not sheeted close to the shrouds, but in general they look like they have good sails well handled and well trimmed which you would expect since they have to sail everywhere.

[hpaabor]

All the people saying that you have to have to have a mega diesel and enough power generation for a village causes me to wonder about my father who almost a century ago captained a Baltic trader sailing freighter that didn't even have a motor. I also recall the Pardys sailing with their kerosene lamps. Don't think there is a hard rule about anything, but I guess being able to push a button and go home at 15 knots is nice

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by hpaabor

All the people saying that you have to have to have a mega diesel and enough power generation for a village causes me to wonder about my father who almost a century ago captained a Baltic trader sailing freighter that didn't even have a motor. I also recall the Pardys sailing with their kerosene lamps. Don't think there is a hard rule about anything, but I guess being able to push a button and go home at 15 knots is nice

What is it with all the hyperboles these days. No one said you needed mega diesels and enough power for a village.

You simply need to be realistic about where you are sailing and the conditions you will be encountering. UMA did great in the Bahamas and east coast, seems like what they have works great there. I don't think the pardeys ever went to Norway. Sheltered water plus a lack of direct sun is not great for their setup. I wonder how they are going to get any power at all in winter?

For Uma they've positioned themselves as electric drive 'people' so I think they will just tough it out but it will be interesting to see how they deal with the conditions up there as the long nights of winter approach. I hope they will be honest with their viewers and just admit the limitation of electric drive and get a little Honda generator.

[BigBeakie]

You know, for a long long time people on sailboats got used to getting to places when the wind blew, and having to wait awhile when it didn't. It's not usually a catastrophe, now is it? Yes, there were people who died in the doldrums when they ran out of water, but we've had radio communication for quite awhile now, so you could just ask for some water from that passing freighter....

But seriously, UMA are not being "dishonest" with their viewer about anything re EP. He said quite plainly in a previous episode that they plan their route mostly where there is wind, because they know the limitations of EP range. They get it.

And now they are in cruising grounds that test the EP range capabilities, but, so what? When it's going to blow like stink they will seek shelter and anchor, and when its too calm, they'll wait awhile. No big deal. Mostly they will get along just fine.

But we now go "sailing" like we're on land, don't we? We start an I.C.E. engine and go whatever direction we want, whenever we want, for pretty much as far as we want.

Is having a genset on a hybrid EP boat nice for some sort of "emergency" use? Sure, of course it would be. But what "emergency" did you have in mind?

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

You know, for a long long time people on sailboats got used to getting to places when the wind blew, and having to wait awhile when it didn't. It's not usually a catastrophe, now is it? Yes, there were people who died in the doldrums when they ran out of water, but we've had radio communication for quite awhile now, so you could just ask for some water from that passing freighter....

But seriously, UMA are not being "dishonest" with their viewer about anything re EP. He said quite plainly in a previous episode that they plan their route mostly where there is wind, because they know the limitations of EP range. They get it.

And now they are in cruising grounds that test the EP range capabilities, but, so what? When it's going to blow like stink they will seek shelter and anchor, and when its too calm, they'll wait awhile. No big deal. Mostly they will get along just fine.

But we now go "sailing" like we're on land, don't we? We start an I.C.E. engine and go whatever direction we want, whenever we want, for pretty much as far as we want.

Is having a genset on a hybrid EP boat nice for some sort of "emergency" use? Sure, of course it would be. But what "emergency" did you have in mind?

I didn't mention the word emergency anywhere. Of course they can wait for as long as they want for wind. But what about power? No solar in the winters, they will need to get a wind generator, which might not work that well in the fjords if no wind.

I'm just saying it would be good if they had a frank conversation with their viewers about the limitations of not having a motor in the northern latitudes. But from following them all these years I doubt they will. Dan has some pretty strong opinions about things....lets just say.

I also didnt mean to say they have been dishonest. Like I said it has worked great up until now. So im hoping instead of dismissing it they would talk about the limitations in future episodes.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by myocean

Very interesting news from Jimmy Cornell:

His next boat is an Outremer 45 and it will be all electric, ZERO FOSSIL FUELS
Cool!

I first wondered why he is not going for the Aluminum version of the O45 (the Allures 47.9) but meanwhile his choice makes perfectly sense to me.

Zero fossil fuels means you need maximum efficiency. This is the reason for a cat. And a light carbon design is certainly much more efficient (better hull resistance curve) than an aluminum design.
I guess he will combine this with the ultimate hydrogeneration feature from Oceanvolt, featuring adjustable pitch and generating enormous amounts of energy while sailing. Maximum solar power is certainly a must have.
Accidentally I have the specific shaft power need of the extended Outremer 45 at hand - it is just 3 kW total shaft power (2x1.5) for a speed of 5 kts : Very good choice, Mr Cornell!

I'm surprised no one has commented on this 45' cat can go 5kn with 3kw.

[BigBeakie]

Did UMA say they were going to over winter in Norway? I must have missed that.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Did UMA say they were going to over winter in Norway? I must have missed that.

Not trying to argue with you but lets just agree they are not getting the same amount of sun as they were in the Bahamas.

Like I said, it worked great for them in the Bahamas but it looks like not as well in Norway.

I'm very interested in going electric in the future so I'm not trying to argue against it, just being honest with what does and doesn't seem to work.

I hope we can have intelligent discussions about electric drive in the future and not turn it into another the mono vs cat thing.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Not trying to argue with you but lets just agree they are not getting the same amount of sun as they were in the Bahamas.

Like I said, it worked great for them in the Bahamas but it looks like not as well in Norway.

I'm very interested in going electric in the future so I'm not trying to argue against it, just being honest with what does and doesn't seem to work.

I hope we can have intelligent discussions about electric drive in the future and not turn it into another the mono vs cat thing.

This sun argument -- has either (UMA or Cornell) said they expect to generate a significant amount of power for propulsion using the sun?

What is looking 'not so well' for them in Norway?

Honestly asking

[Yihang]

Cornell is probably mostly relying on regen since he is just going around mostly non stop. Not much solar on the Outremer by the looks of it.

UMA has always relied on solar and not using the motor much. I don't believe they have a wind generator yet. Regen doesn't do much below 6 knots.

[BigBeakie]

I'm not sure what your point is. UMA have a relatively modest size mono with limited footprint capacity to carry lots of solar. That is self evident and I'm sure they would love to have more if they could.

If you want to be self sufficient with solar on your EP boat, a cat will allow a significant solar array such that you can motor in the calms on solar alone, thus preserving your batteries. You just do the arithmetic to balance motor consumption for a given speed vs your array output. Consideration to be given to which cruising grounds would be appropriate is a good idea.

A DC genset will of course extend your range, give more options for battery charging, provide redundancy, and also help in adverse conditions. But, as UMA have shown, month after month, it is not absolutely necessary to have adventure and fun, it is an option.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

I'm not sure what your point is. UMA have a relatively modest size mono with limited footprint capacity to carry lots of solar. That is self evident and I'm sure they would love to have more if they could.

If you want to be self sufficient with solar on your EP boat, a cat will allow a significant solar array such that you can motor in the calms on solar alone, thus preserving your batteries. You just do the arithmetic to balance motor consumption for a given speed vs your array output. Consideration to be given to which cruising grounds would be appropriate is a good idea.

A DC genset will of course extend your range, give more options for battery charging, provide redundancy, and also help in adverse conditions. But, as UMA have shown, month after month, it is not absolutely necessary to have adventure and fun, it is an option.

I was replying mglonnoro.

I agree with you. No genset needed when condition are good for solar and wind is available most of the time.

Also not trying to say anything negative about UMA. All I wish is after their northern europe trip they can give another review on how the electric drive worked out in those conditions and what differences they noticed between that and the bahamas.

Maybe some misunderstandings. All good mate..