Jimmy Cornell goes Electric, with a Cat

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Ha ha !!!

Also this one: "I you want the ultimate energy store onboard, do not buy a boat, buy a nuclear plant."

;-)))))

Cheers,

b.

Yeah, see, I like that.

There seem to be quite a few folks who have plenty of bucks and who want a boat with everything and every convenience they're used to in their condo back home (not speaking of J. Cornell, necessarily)

There is a guy on another thread who wants to tow his 23ft center console fishing boat behind his 50' sailboat.

There are quite a few guys (tech bros, mostly) who want to have 100gb Internet speeds and unlimited data anywhere on the ocean.

If you want to keep your 23' center console fishing boat, or you need to have unlimited data and ultimate speed Internet, or whatever land bound luxury you feel entitled to, keep your waterfront condo or SF apartment, and stay home.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Same here, and nothing that I can find about manual regeneration. Hopefully someone can explain.

As indicated there are 2 modes for OV regen, Auto and Manual. Auto is controlled for fluctuations in boatspeed by the controller that averages out things, and works best when boatspeed is pretty consistent.

In manual regen mode, you fiddle with the throttle after pushing the regen button, to find the optimum output, which is the rpm that spins the blades just open but no more. When you've hit the spot you'll see the regen output figure jump up. This is more effective when the boat is in choppy water, gusty conditions or sailing downwind with boat acceleration down waves.

Cornell would have been producing about 1.6 kWh to 1.7 kWh from the OV regen during his 10 hour trip at average 8.2 knots when all boat systems were in operation. Since at the end of the trip he had nett + 5.3 kWh added to the battery charge, that means he used between 10.7 kWh to 11.7 kWh to run the boat for 10 hours, ie. over a Kw per hour. That's pretty heavy consumption IMO, and yet the OV regen during the trip ran that load and still recharged the battery. So, whats wrong with that?

The fact that, in other conditions that were lighter, he drained the battery,....well what a surprise.

He must have had a Victron BMV 712 battery monitor, which would have been reading either a positive + or negative - battery charging state. If you're sailing along on regen and the battery monitor says you are in negative, it means you're using more power than you're producing, from all sources. If you ignore that and keep doing what you're doing, you will flatten you're battery. Pretty basic, really.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

As indicated there are 2 modes for OV regen, Auto and Manual. Auto is controlled for fluctuations in boatspeed by the controller that averages out things, and works best when boatspeed is pretty consistent.



In manual regen mode, you fiddle with the throttle after pushing the regen button, to find the optimum output, which is the rpm that spins the blades just open but no more. When you've hit the spot you'll see the regen output figure jump up. This is more effective when the boat is in choppy water, gusty conditions or sailing downwind with boat acceleration down waves.



Cornell would have been producing about 1.6 kWh to 1.7 kWh from the OV regen during his 10 hour trip at average 8.2 knots when all boat systems were in operation. Since at the end of the trip he had nett + 5.3 kWh added to the battery charge, that means he used between 10.7 kWh to 11.7 kWh to run the boat for 10 hours, ie. over a Kw per hour. That's pretty heavy consumption IMO, and yet the OV regen during the trip ran that load and still recharged the battery. So, whats wrong with that?



The fact that, in other conditions that were lighter, he drained the battery,....well what a surprise.



He must have had a Victron BMV 712 battery monitor, which would have been reading either a positive + or negative - battery charging state. If you're sailing along on regen and the battery monitor says you are in negative, it means you're using more power than you're producing, from all sources. If you ignore that and keep doing what you're doing, you will flatten you're battery. Pretty basic, really.

Seriously, in anything other than steady state sailing I would need to use the manual mode to adjust the RPM of the propeller on every wave and with every change of boat speed?!? That’s insane and pretty much useless for higher performance cruisers which will surf on every wave. On a passage average of 9 knots our top speeds will surge to 20 and low speeds 6-7.

Seems like a Watt & Sea unit would be much easier to use, but for our boat we would need the racing model and that really drives up the cost.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Seriously, in anything other than steady state sailing I would need to use the manual mode to adjust the RPM of the propeller on every wave and with every change of boat speed?!? That’s insane and pretty much useless for higher performance cruisers which will surf on every wave. On a passage average of 9 knots our top speeds will surge to 20 and low speeds 6-7.

Seems like a Watt & Sea unit would be much easier to use, but for our boat we would need the racing model and that really drives up the cost.

Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.

That seems like something they can solve in software.....eventually.

[Milkmannosoy]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Gee, you're good at jumping to conclusions! ......Who said anything about needing to keep adjusting the RPM's ????

No, once you get the props to spin open, that is the minimum rotational RPM to keep them open. So you can go faster and slower but they will stay open and keep regenerating.

Did they say if oceanvolt taught them the technique? Or was it just not used by everyone on the boat?

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Yihang

That seems like something they can solve in software.....eventually.

Not sure there is anything to solve. What are you referring to?

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Milkmannosoy

Did they say if oceanvolt taught them the technique? Or was it just not used by everyone on the boat?

Dunno.

But if no-one onboard was monitoring power consumption versus charging, I gather more user orientation probably would have not gone astray.

It's very strange to me that this happened with such an experienced skipper. More sea trials would have been good, with new tech on a new (to him) boat. He probably had a lot to absorb, in a short time, and obviously he had expectations that were unrealistic.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Not sure there is anything to solve. What are you referring to?

I mean instead of manually searching for the right throttle it would be done in software. So you have an auto mode as it is now and then a 'open ocean auto' mode for the situation described.

OV market their systems as pretty advanced and smart so the thought of this manual mode is not really inline with the sales pitch.

Probably the reason why we haven't heard of it until now.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Yihang

I mean instead of manually searching for the right throttle it would be done in software. So you have an auto mode as it is now and then a 'open ocean auto' mode for the situation described.

OV market their systems as pretty advanced and smart so the thought of this manual mode is not really inline with the sales pitch.

Probably the reason why we haven't heard of it until now.

OK, I see. Well, it may be ( speculation alert ) more complex and have more variables than can be accommodated by software. The specific RPM that works, for that install, would depend on prop type ( brand), size and pitch, and water flow variables, and maybe other factors I'm not aware of.

As it is, it's pretty easy. In manual when you're sailing along, with the throttle at OFF, there won't be much, if any, regen happening. Then you nudge the throttle in forward up until you see the regen value jump up. That will be about max. for the current boatspeed. If the boat speeds up in a gust, or downhill on a wave for example, the prop spins faster and there is corresponding more regen.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

OK, I see. Well, it may be ( speculation alert ) more complex and have more variables than can be accommodated by software. The specific RPM that works, for that install, would depend on prop type ( brand), size and pitch, and water flow variables, and maybe other factors I'm not aware of.

As it is, it's pretty easy. In manual when you're sailing along, with the throttle at OFF, there won't be much, if any, regen happening. Then you nudge the throttle in forward up until you see the regen value jump up. That will be about max. for the current boatspeed. If the boat speeds up in a gust, or downhill on a wave for example, the prop spins faster and there is corresponding more regen.

Software love variables.....

In rough seas doesn't the variables change a lot? Wave action, surfing etc. Do you need to tweak it a lot?

I want OV to succeed, they have a sleek setup.

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Yihang

Software love variables.....

In rough seas doesn't the variables change a lot? Wave action, surfing etc. Do you need to tweak it a lot?

I want OV to succeed, they have a sleek setup.

OV are already succeeding by the way....technically, they are way ahead of other EP vendors.

But on the software, sure improvement is always possible, but maybe the software development is not justified for a low volume product to just produce a "perfect" product. If an algorithm driven controller had to be re-configured for every combination of prop variables, for instance, it's maybe using a sledge hammer to crack a walnut solution.

The boats I've been on, one with Gori props one with Flexofolds, it was set and forget, there was no tweaking as we went along and boat speed changed. But maybe if the conditions changed significantly, it might need adjusting, I'm not sure.

It's a good question & I'll try and find out.

[jmh2002]

What would be great is if the software would "learn" that particular boat and setup, slowly getting better as more miles are done in different conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yeah, see, I like that.

There seem to be quite a few folks who have plenty of bucks and who want a boat with everything and every convenience they're used to in their condo back home (not speaking of J. Cornell, necessarily)

There is a guy on another thread who wants to tow his 23ft center console fishing boat behind his 50' sailboat.

There are quite a few guys (tech bros, mostly) who want to have 100gb Internet speeds and unlimited data anywhere on the ocean.

If you want to keep your 23' center console fishing boat, or you need to have unlimited data and ultimate speed Internet, or whatever land bound luxury you feel entitled to, keep your waterfront condo or SF apartment, and stay home.

Why is it a matter of "entitlement"?

People want what they want. It's an everyday basic function of life to balance what you want, with what is practically possible, and affordable.

I don't see anything wrong with wanting to have your 23' fishing boat with you, or 100mps Internet, if that's what floats your boat. Whether you can have it or not is a different question. The 23' motorboat will fit on the after deck of many 80' to 90' sailboats. Or he can just scale it down a bit. Normal process of fitting desires to practical possibilities.

Likewise, with domestic equipment requiring a lot of electrical power. Nothing wrong with wanting to bake with electrical power. What is wrong is not figuring out how to supply the required amount of power.

When I started cruising with my father in the 80's on a 27' boat, the idea that someday I would want to have a washer and dryer on board my cruising boat would have seemed crazy. Well now I have it, and wouldn't want to live without it. I also have a built-in grill/microwave, and I do most of my cooking with induction. And I have a heavy duty 6.5kW generator and school bus alternator on the main engine, to produce the necessary power, which is NO problem. I've been unconnected to shore power for up to 3 months at a time, and it was NO problem.

Why would anyone want to have less comfort on board, than you would expect to have in a land home, if you have the practical chance to have it? Weight or cost or space usually require some compromises, but those are the only reasons I see not to have it. I usually live at least 3 months, and sometimes 6 months out of the year, on board my boat. I don't want to be camping if I don't have to be. There is nothing wrong with Jimmy wanting to have comforts of home. The only thing wrong is not having solved the problem of how to power it. He simply needed a generator, which he is now installing, or a much bigger solar installation, or better both. He just swallowed too much of the OceanVolt hype, that's all.

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Why would anyone want to have less comfort on board, than you would expect to have in a land home, if you have the practical chance to have it? Weight or cost or space usually require some compromises, but those are the only reasons I see not to have it. I usually live at least 3 months, and sometimes 6 months out of the year, on board my boat. I don't want to be camping if I don't have to be. There is nothing wrong with Jimmy wanting to have comforts of home. The only thing wrong is not having solved the problem of how to power it. He simply needed a generator, which he is now installing, or a much bigger solar installation, or better both. He just swallowed too much of the OceanVolt hype, that's all.

As I understood it from talking to OV, it went the other way around. Their design and recommendation called for more power, but he wanted to go without a generator anyway.