Replace Diesel with electric engine

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Don't be silly. Not all lithium boat batteries are LifePO4, and even LifePO4 batteries have fire potential if mishandled AND cells can have manufacturing defects.

My point, which is generally not acknowledged by lithium battery fans, is that we are building complex systems with lots of potential failure points, which may (or may not) work perfectly when new but will certainly experience failures in the future. Failures which may be hard to diagnose and fix and even have the potential of fire onboard.

The exact same can be said for FLAs. And lifepo4 don't produce hydrogen gas when being charged.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

There, a serious candidate for our next auxiliary motor

https://electrek.co/2021/08/19/cande...r4XHacJuGMd1S0

Run it like a retractable bow thruster.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

...with the 40' twin you can run the two HVAC units all day at anchor in Florida sun and have power to spare for an all-electric kitchen with large upright freezer/fridge - standard even on my 33'er - with full-time 120V...

We should not be surprised that a 40' powerboat with twin 240hp Volvo Diesel gensets can have air conditioning and an electric galley.

That is not the point.

The point is: Complex electronic systems controlling the safety of these batteries can be expected to fail occasionally, more as they get older, sometimes with disastrous results.

Here is an example of a lithium battery fire which occurred on Roy Disney's Pyewacket (probably not caused by a cheapo installation). They were at a dock and got the battery out and onto the dock.

Many of us seem to be in total love with these technical marvels but I have many years of boating and I know how hard it is sometimes to diagnose and fix even simple systems. I really think it's going to take quite a competent boat owner to do that at sea when one of these components fail, which they will do, even if there is no fire.

We will see and hear of battery and charging systems which are down, and frustrated owners trying to get somebody to help figure out what is wrong, and sometimes we will hear of fires which occurred as a result of the failure.

Does anyone doubt this?

[Anders]

That's a Valence lithium ion battery and not a LiFePO4 battery that's used on normal boats.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We should not be surprised that a 40' powerboat with twin 240hp Volvo Diesel gensets can have air conditioning and an electric galley.

That is not the point.

The point is: Complex electronic systems controlling the safety of these batteries can be expected to fail occasionally, more as they get older, sometimes with disastrous results.

Here is an example of a lithium battery fire which occurred on Roy Disney's Pyewacket (probably not caused by a cheapo installation). They were at a dock and got the battery out and onto the dock.

Many of us seem to be in total love with these technical marvels but I have many years of boating and I know how hard it is sometimes to diagnose and fix even simple systems. I really think it's going to take quite a competent boat owner to do that at sea when one of these components fail, which they will do, even if there is no fire.

We will see and hear of battery and charging systems which are down, and frustrated owners trying to get somebody to help figure out what is wrong, and sometimes we will hear of fires which occurred as a result of the failure.

Does anyone doubt this?

Valence batteries are not specificly lithium iron phosphate batteries , they are lithium iron magnesium phosphate.
Valence also being a drop in oddly state require an external BMS would like to see the complete install

[zloitapok]

Originally Posted by PineyWoodsPete

That's a huge battery, over 60kWh @ 288V in the newer ones, powering a 150kW motor. And weighs nearly 1000lbs! They are listed as only Li-ion, but the specific cell chemistry not given.

I used 1 of 10 modules for boat battery. 36V 180Ah only, 6,5 kWh.
Total weight was 86 lbs including sealed box.
Chemistry of cells is LiNMC.
One module consist of 10 cells serial and 3 in parallel, 30 cells total

[zloitapok]

Originally Posted by newhaul

The exact same can be said for FLAs. And lifepo4 don't produce hydrogen gas when being charged.

it is correct.
It is produce hydrogen when heated up externally over 100 degrees Celcius

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Anders

That's a Valence lithium ion battery and not a LiFePO4 battery that's used on normal boats.

Originally Posted by newhaul

Valence batteries are not specificly lithium iron phosphate batteries , they are lithium iron magnesium phosphate.
Valence also being a drop in oddly state require an external BMS would like to see the complete install

So what you guys are saying, if I've got this right, is that because the Valence battery is LiFePO4 plus Magensium (Lithium Iron Phospate Magnesium) then what happened to Pyewacket's battery does not apply to LiFePO4 batteries?

That is "head in the sand" kind of stuff.

I don't think you can see the complete install anymore, since at least some of it torched itself.

The Valence set up sold is here https://www.amazon.com/U27-12XP-Vale.../dp/B07CP823LB

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by wingssail

So what you guys are saying, if I've got this right, is that because the Valence battery is LiFePO4 plus Magensium (Lithium Iron Phospate Magnesium) then what happened to Pyewacket's battery does not apply to LiFePO4 batteries?

That is "head in the sand" kind of stuff.

I don't think you can see the complete install anymore, since at least some of it torched itself.

The Valence set up sold is here https://www.amazon.com/U27-12XP-Vale.../dp/B07CP823LB

Lithium iron magnesium phosphate improves energy density but sacrifices some safety not much but a little .

That is not the actual Valence battery but even that listing tells you you need an external BMS

[newhaul]

Upon further examination of the battery dregs it looks like a simple dead short caused the fire not a failure of the chemical makeup of the cells . They seem to still be intact . This is also a common reason for all electrical started fires a dead short externally . Occasionally internally.

[PineyWoodsPete]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We should not be surprised that a 40' powerboat with twin 240hp Volvo Diesel gensets can have air conditioning and an electric galley.
That is not the point.

The point is: Complex electronic systems controlling the safety of these batteries can be expected to fail occasionally, more as they get older, sometimes with disastrous results.


Here is an example of a lithium battery fire which occurred on Roy Disney's Pyewacket (probably not caused by a cheapo installation). They were at a dock and got the battery out and onto the dock.

Many of us seem to be in total love with these technical marvels but I have many years of boating and I know how hard it is sometimes to diagnose and fix even simple systems. I really think it's going to take quite a competent boat owner to do that at sea when one of these components fail, which they will do, even if there is no fire.

We will see and hear of battery and charging systems which are down, and frustrated owners trying to get somebody to help figure out what is wrong, and sometimes we will hear of fires which occurred as a result of the failure.

Does anyone doubt this?

That's running the AC's at anchor/dockside unplugged and 2.4kW solar only charging. But it's the large energy storage that gives pretty much engine-free full-time 120/240V. The "gensets" are the inline 10/7kW motor/generators that, when un-coupled by a clutch in electric drive mode give you 20kW total electric power to the props - reaching at max almost 8kn on the 40' for less than an hour, but at 5kn, more like a 25nm range.

I've been involved with boats over 65 years now, mostly sailboats, and have celebrated all the incredible changes in technology since. All can break down, but most are very reliable kept relatively dry - as is my bilge for the first time - totally - since owning the GL 33. But a lightning strike as I've had on prior boat on Florida E. coast I don't even want to think about - fortunately very rare on the cold water W coast.

The Achilles heel of the pre-'15 Greenlines with the VW 165 TDi hybrid motor/gen as my '14 has been failure of the electro-hydraulic clutch that separates the M-G from the diesel allowing electric "motoring". It's a simple VW man. tran. clutch hydraulic master cylinder actuated by a 12V motor, to open the VW clutch through the VW auto slave cylinder (always the failure point, buried deeply and labor-intense to replace). Gen. mode still works fine. No reports on the GL forum about electronic control systems failing so far. The Volvo motors' clutch from '15 to present has apparently been much more trouble-free.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Does anyone doubt this?

I think most people are missing your general points about complexity when off cruising in a semi-remote location and are instead focusing more on trying to refute your specific examples.

I'm all for the electric revolution but in answer to your question, no I do not doubt that there are and will be issues to overcome, or at least mitigate as far as practicable.

That should be obvious and is not be ignored either for better or worse.

[s/v Jedi]

As the huge majority of boats use lifepo4 instead of other lithium chemistries, show us the hundreds of examples of fires and sinkings caused by lifepo4 as there must be a huge amount more if they are just as much risk.

Let’s start with just a couple examples.

[jmh2002]

If that was for me Dirk, then no, I wasn't referring to hundreds of fires.

Only to Fred's point of complexity, and that needing to be taken account for semi-remote cruising where technicians and repairs aren't quickly available and some owners may be less proficient with such equipment themselves.

A simple example to me is with a bigger all electric setup, instead of having 1 x 5000W inverter, I'd be more comfortable with 2 x 3000W. If one fails that setup will no longer run all the loads at the same time, but combined with some simple load management and running on 1 inverter it won't impede the cruise from continuing.

Of course, 2 x inverters can bring different issues, so maybe just a 5000W spare instead?

But those are the kind of complexity concepts of a full electric setup that I was referring to that the average cruiser may not fully comprehend or be able to have easily repaired depending on the cruising location.

I don't doubt that will cause issues in the future. I don't doubt that not all boats will be setup with sufficient redundancy and some of them will reach a domino effect of failures that cause them to be stranded somewhere.

That's not a negative point against the electric revolution. But it is something that needs to be properly considered.

Not everyone has your technical knowledge or ability. In fact, most do not...

[GordMay]

US electric vehicle charging network strategy

The Biden administration is set to release a federal strategy [1], Monday, to implement an ambitious plan to build 500,000 charging stations, for electric vehicles, across the country.

The $1 trillion infrastructure law [2], President Joe Biden signed last month, authorizes the charging stations, and sets aside $5 billion for states, with a goal to build a national charging network. The law also provides an additional $2.5 billion, for local grants to support charging stations in rural areas, and in disadvantaged communities.

Biden has set a goal, that electric cars and trucks account for half of new vehicles sold, by 2030.
The new EV charging strategy establishes a joint electric vehicles office, between the federal Energy and Transportation departments; issues guidance and standards for states; and ensures consultations with manufacturers, state and local governments, environmental justice and civil rights groups, tribes and others.

[1] FACT SHEET: The Biden- Harris Electric Vehicle Charging Action Plan
➥ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...g-action-plan/


[2] ➥ https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden...778f049861b144

[3] ➥ https://apnews.com/article/climate-j...a2cba420713d22