The rise of electric Boats

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by danstanford

At least with the Democrat-Republican debate where so many seem to be at the poles without evidence, I can say at least they have some skin in the game. I cannot understand why so many seem dead set against electric propulsion as an option. If it is fear that someone will create public policy forcing you to convert, I am of the opinion that you are safe until there isn't enough diesel for you to get any which makes the debate moot.
Please chime in with suggestions or criticisms that you haven't heard before in the thread and I will respectfully do the same. If all you want to do is bash the idea as not feasible because it is not perfect for some applications, I don't think you are adding to the discussion but rather detracting from the discourse.
Sincerely, Dan

I don't think anyone is dead set against it.

This is a forum where we discuss issues. This thread is about the viability of electric propulsion on boats. Give us the specs on a boat you think will match the capabilities of current diesel powered boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by harlem24

Where are you getting the energy from?
It does not come from thin air.
Atm there is a limited supply of renewables...
And from the look of it, for years to come.

There's a limited amount of wind? Or sun? Or nuclear? No, the only limit is our imagination. Energy itself is truly unlimited.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by harlem24

Electrofuel have the problem, that they need even more energy to be produced and are used in very inefficient ICE vehicles.
From an efficiency standpoint PtL is the worst thing you can do.
Batteries and electric motors are far better.

In the long run it electro fuels will not have that problem.

Currently they are Coal to Liquid (CtL) or Petroleum to Liquid (PtL) which has little or no advantage in carbon release over just using the fossil fuel directly.

In medium term they will be Emissions to Liquid (EtL) which uses the carbon collected from emissions for another use which is less bad than PtL or CtL.

In the long run electro fuels will be Air to Liquids (AtL). Yes, they will be expensive so they will only be used for niche uses with no viable alternative: ocean shipping, long range air craft and ground travel in isolated areas.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by harlem24

You can, the panels are walk-on semi rigid.
But there is a huge lounge aft under the "bimini".
They do store the hydrogen:
https://www.energy-observer.org/reso...drogen-storage
63kg in high pressure composite tanks.
Nothing I would like to have on a plesure vessel...

Walk on panels yeah right . They may say walk on but walk on panels don't last long.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not when power density matters.


Batteries and electric motors might be ok in cars which never get that far from a supercharger, but not in aircraft, or vessels.

Batteries will wind up in long range aircraft to get the plane to altitude and the fuel engines will provide all the thrust for cruise. Short and medium range all electric aircraft are in the works now.

Even though shipping will always have fuel engines of some sort sails will make a comeback on everything but military craft.

Commercial shipping and air travel will slow down significantly too. That is happening already.

[Yihang]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Batteries will wind up in long range aircraft to get the plane to altitude and the fuel engines will provide all the thrust for cruise. Short and medium range all electric aircraft are in the works now.

Even though shipping will always have fuel engines of some sort sails will make a comeback on everything but military craft.

Commercial shipping and air travel will slow down significantly too. That is happening already.

The US should get some kind of highspeed rail project. Flying to LA from SF is just a waste of time and resources.

Short distance air travel is really inefficient, both in time and carbon emissions.

typical 500km(la-sf) flight emits 168kilos of carbon per passenger while it's 18 for highspeed rail. almost tenfold.
https://www.dw.com/en/trains-vs-plan...vel/a-45209552

Here's heavily politicized (what isnt these days) article on why the US has no highspeed rail.

https://qz.com/1761495/this-is-why-t...-speed-trains/

[harlem24]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There's a limited amount of wind? Or sun? Or nuclear? No, the only limit is our imagination. Energy itself is truly unlimited.

Yeah, but you need to collect the energy and that's where the problems start.
Everybody wants renewables, but there are to many people that say NIMBY.
Here were local initiatves protesting a solar park, an installation they don't see and that does not make a sound and would have made the community producing more energy then it comsumed. But no, not here, go somewhere else...

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by harlem24

Yeah, but you need to collect the energy and that's where the problems start.
Everybody wants renewables, but there are to many people that say NIMBY.
Here were local initiatves protesting a solar park, an installation they don't see and that does not make a sound and would have made the community producing more energy then it comsumed. But no, not here, go somewhere else...

One of the disadvantages of wind and solar is the amount of land required and what these power sources do to the landscape.

But, you know, we deal with it. Keep pushing it ahead and building it out.

But technology is moving forward all the time, too. There is still some room for increased efficiency in solar panels. Architecture can incorporate solar panels in roofs -- there is plenty of roof area across Germany.

And there are great technological advances in nuclear power production, for example the Gen IV, helium/molten salt modulated Micro Modular Reactors: https://usnc.com/mmr-energy-system/. Modular reactors are a radical way to solve the cost and construction time issues of conventional nuclear power.

Energy should get more and more plentiful and cheaper and cheaper as time goes on as a result of technology. This will make it easier to give up carbon than we think.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I don't think anyone is dead set against it.

This is a forum where we discuss issues. This thread is about the viability of electric propulsion on boats. Give us the specs on a boat you think will match the capabilities of current diesel powered boats.

I hadn't read anywhere that matching the capabilities of diesel was the aim of the thread. All of the solutions and use cases have different strengths and weaknesses and for the record my boat completely replaces the diesel in predominately better ways for MY use case. Flip it around and I could make the argument that an electric boat is better suited for crossing oceans since the is no limit to the fuel you could generate with solar panels and sun while a diesel can run out of fuel with no way to power on from there.

My point was parallel to yours and I completely agree with your first two sentences. What I was reacting to was the spate of posts in this thread and many others saying electric boats will not work and objecting to every idea. I am not at either end of this argument but rather in the middle and I do have experience with one solution. Electric is no panacea to the issues we face today though it may be part of the solution to the issues we will face over time.
Dan

[harlem24]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And there are great technological advances in nuclear power production, for example the Gen IV, helium/molten salt modulated Micro Modular Reactors: https://usnc.com/mmr-energy-system/. Modular reactors are a radical way to solve the cost and construction time issues of conventional nuclear power.

Energy should get more and more plentiful and cheaper and cheaper as time goes on as a result of technology. This will make it easier to give up carbon than we think.

They are researching that for how long now? And how have they come? I do not see a short term solution in those SMR/Thorium reactors...
But perhaps I am wrong and the billions they put in there are for a good use...

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by danstanford

My point was parallel to yours and I completely agree with your first two sentences. What I was reacting to was the spate of posts in this thread and many others saying electric boats will not work and objecting to every idea.

I don't think the forum is saying that at all. Indeed the likes of Uma and Sailing Wisdom who have both crossed the Atlantic in the last two years show it is possible. The problem for most will be the need to plan or wait rather than sail to a time table. Oh and the cost plus getting used to a reduced range.

If you wanted an OV plus 14kw battleborn solution like Uma, then that will set you back what? perhaps £20k. Today, you can have a new Volvo 30hp fitted for £7k. There might even be an argument to buy a new diesel now and use it for 2 decades, then switch to an alternative, once someone else has worked out all the problems. Meanwhile you get 20 years of trouble free motoring.

Originally Posted by danstanford

Electric is no panacea to the issues we face today though it may be part of the solution to the issues we will face over time.
Dan

Agreed and it will be interesting to see what develops over the next decade or two

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Here is a bit of where reality meets fantasy
Electric Shock by Jimmy Cornell | Nautic Magazine
Its just not there yet.

I was really disappointed to read this. It seemed like such a good system on paper.
I am sure there is not a single sailor who would not love to be rid of smelly diesels and the corresponding fuel bill, and still have our creature comforts. Also an alternate means to move when the wind does not play ball.
It’s just a matter of time until technology gets it right, things are progressing at an exponential rate.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Yihang

The US should get some kind of highspeed rail project. Flying to LA from SF is just a waste of time and resources.

Short distance air travel is really inefficient, both in time and carbon emissions.

typical 500km(la-sf) flight emits 168kilos of carbon per passenger while it's 18 for highspeed rail. almost tenfold.
https://www.dw.com/en/trains-vs-plan...vel/a-45209552

Here's heavily politicized (what isnt these days) article on why the US has no highspeed rail.

https://qz.com/1761495/this-is-why-t...-speed-trains/

If you could toss politics out the window, you don't even need high speed trains for the most part. Maybe a dozen hub airports across the country with rail links feeding to the nearby cities say 200-250 mile radius out could cover better than 95% of the population (the rest likely have poor access already).

Most customers would be looking at 1-2hr to get into the main hub airport...when compared to the entire process of the flight from the local to hub airport, for most there will be no measurable difference in travel time.

The problem is not the technical but the political. Cities push for an international airport to feel important. Airlines serving these cities would be fighting it due to lost business. Amtrack is a fiasco and has been for decades.

PS: high speed rail, while very cool really needs a very high demand corridor to cover the costs and has a huge resource cost, so it's not a solution for widespread use but on certain key routes.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I hadn't read anywhere that matching the capabilities of diesel was the aim of the thread. All of the solutions and use cases have different strengths and weaknesses and for the record my boat completely replaces the diesel in predominately better ways for MY use case. Flip it around and I could make the argument that an electric boat is better suited for crossing oceans since the is no limit to the fuel you could generate with solar panels and sun while a diesel can run out of fuel with no way to power on from there.

My point was parallel to yours and I completely agree with your first two sentences. What I was reacting to was the spate of posts in this thread and many others saying electric boats will not work and objecting to every idea. I am not at either end of this argument but rather in the middle and I do have experience with one solution. Electric is no panacea to the issues we face today though it may be part of the solution to the issues we will face over time.
Dan

If you are willing to live with inferior performance or a very limited use case, electric is ready to go today. It's when people start trying to claim it's a replacement for a the old diesel that things start to fall apart very quickly.

As far as ocean crossing sail boats...I would still put my money on a diesel sailboat with a big tank. Unlimited solar fuel implies you don't care how long it takes to cross. A big solar array might be around 1000w. That will generate around 4-5kwh of power per day in good conditions. Assuming 1kwh gets used for house loads, that's 3-4kwh available for propulsion per day. Assuming 4kwh, that's the equivalent of 5hp output for 1hr per day. On a 45ft boat, that might get you 3kts for an hour. So technically, you could provide propulsion indefinitely but so little as to be meaningless. Even if you double the solar array output, it still doesn't provide meaningful propulsion.

So I'm going to turn it back around on you again. Give us some specs on a boat that you think will work along with a use case for that boat.

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So I'm going to turn it back around on you again. Give us some specs on a boat that you think will work along with a use case for that boat.

Sorry, this is the kind of useless back and forth that makes reading these threads so frustrating. I apologize for putting a question back to you or proposing a scenario. In my reading of the thread and so many like it, the need to prove some kind of point like this is destructive to the conversation. Who says we need to spec a boat for that use case to participate constructively in the conversation? I have nowhere near the knowledge to propose such a set of specs nor do I need to to talk about "The rise of electric Boats" which is the name of this thread.