AICW questions

[Bobbob911]

Hi all - I’ve been browsing the forum for a while as a window shopper but now plans are getting a bit more real

We are Canadians living in Toronto, and are strongly considering the snowbird lifestyle in 3-4 years time. In particular, I would love to live on a 40 foot cat (not sure of power or sail yet) and split our time between Toronto and the Caribbean.

I have a few questions:

1) Can someone confirm the AICW bridge clearance is 21’ min from Lake Ontario -> Oswego -> Erie -> Hudson -> ICW?

2) How late in the year would you recommend leaving Lake Ontario? Considering hurricanes etc. I expect we would take this rather leisurely (6-8 weeks to get to Caribbean). Also, as a Canadian I must be in Ontario for at least 6 months to keep health coverage and not trigger tax implications, I am struggling a bit with what’s the right 6 month window. Seems to me Nov 15 - May 15 is about right, or should it be earlier or later?

3) Am I delusional to think it’s practical to traverse the AICW twice a year, every year (ideally for around 10 years)? Will it become a terrible slog by year 3?

Thanks!

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Bob.

Bridge height clearance is closer to 20Ft; but most sailors pull their mast & transport on deck (to Hudson R.)

[Vasco]

I would not leave Lake Ontario any later than the week after Labour day. It gets cold fast.

As for 6-8 weeks to get to the Caribbean, can be done if you jump off at Beaufort, NC. If you intend going down the ICW further south it will take longer, much longer.

Doing the ICW twice a year gets to be a real drag. The first couple of times it's wonderful, after that it's a chore getting home. Many folks start out with this intent but end up leaving their boats in the Caribbean.

You can get an OHIP exemption for the first year. After that I would recommend spending December to end of May down south.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bobbob911

Hi all - I’ve been browsing the forum for a while as a window shopper but now plans are getting a bit more real

We are Canadians living in Toronto, and are strongly considering the snowbird lifestyle in 3-4 years time. In particular, I would love to live on a 40 foot cat (not sure of power or sail yet) and split our time between Toronto and the Caribbean.

I have a few questions:

1) Can someone confirm the AICW bridge clearance is 21’ min from Lake Ontario -> Oswego -> Erie -> Hudson -> ICW?

2) How late in the year would you recommend leaving Lake Ontario? Considering hurricanes etc. I expect we would take this rather leisurely (6-8 weeks to get to Caribbean). Also, as a Canadian I must be in Ontario for at least 6 months to keep health coverage and not trigger tax implications, I am struggling a bit with what’s the right 6 month window. Seems to me Nov 15 - May 15 is about right, or should it be earlier or later?

3) Am I delusional to think it’s practical to traverse the AICW twice a year, every year (ideally for around 10 years)? Will it become a terrible slog by year 3?

Thanks!

Where in the Carribean are you looking to go?
- To Miami is around 2000 miles, so you are looking at 50miles per day every day (no weather or mechanical issues allowed) to get to Miami in 6 weeks. At 7kt, that's a full day's travel every day.
- If you island hop thru the bahamas to get to the Virgin Islands, you adding another 1300 miles.

It can be done but this isn't sounding too leisurely. If you run offshore, it's a different ballgame but also a different skill set and experience.

If you wait until November to depart, especially in the northern part, it can get cold and the days get short. Plus a lot of marine facilities shut down for the winter in October. I would want to depart by September...October at the latest. Of course, you may want to take a more leisurely pace so you hit the hurricane areas after Nov 1 (check with insurance as to when is hurricane season officially and where does it extend to).

Going up and down the ICW can be great fun but most snowbirds wind up in the Keys or Bahamas not the Caribbean for the winter.

[Bobbob911]

Thanks everyone for the info so far. I did a bit more digging and it seems Ontario allows to be out of country for up to 7 months at a time, that means I could leave earlier (mid October) and return mid May.

Global warming has made September maybe the most beautiful month for boating up here, and it’s nice well into October. BUT! Leaving earlier adds to the risk of running into hurricanes.

I had ballparked 50 miles/day, 2000 miles = 40 days, so traveling 2 days out of 3 would be 2 months. Maybe less by hopping outside of ICW where weather permits and time demands. The boats I am looking at are capable (Leopard 40 for example), but I’m not sure that I am

My plan generally is to spend some time around Miami and the keys, but mostly home in Mexico Yucatán (progreso, Isla mujueres, Puerto aventura). That being said part of the attraction is to have 3-4 months to explore anywhere in the Caribbean we feel like every year. Practically I think that means we could get as far as BVIs or maybe Anguilla/st maartin?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Bobbob911

Thanks everyone for the info so far. I did a bit more digging and it seems Ontario allows to be out of country for up to 7 months at a time, that means I could leave earlier (mid October) and return mid May.

Global warming has made September maybe the most beautiful month for boating up here, and it’s nice well into October. BUT! Leaving earlier adds to the risk of running into hurricanes.

I had ballparked 50 miles/day, 2000 miles = 40 days, so traveling 2 days out of 3 would be 2 months. Maybe less by hopping outside of ICW where weather permits and time demands. The boats I am looking at are capable (Leopard 40 for example), but I’m not sure that I am

My plan generally is to spend some time around Miami and the keys, but mostly home in Mexico Yucatán (progreso, Isla mujueres, Puerto aventura). That being said part of the attraction is to have 3-4 months to explore anywhere in the Caribbean we feel like every year. Practically I think that means we could get as far as BVIs or maybe Anguilla/st maartin?

Welcome to the world of the Snow Goose..

[Steadman Uhlich]

Welcome Aboard CF Bob.

Sounds like a nice plan.
You have come to the right place for advice, as many of the members here have done the same.

[sailnautilus]

There is a huge group of Canadians who cruise the Bahamas each year, then leave their boats in Green Cove Springs, near Jacksonville, in Florida each year.....Haul the boat, store it, then come back and return to the Bahamas after provisioning and fixing anything in the US.
This eliminates the ICW slog, many thousands of miles and I understand the rates are very favorable there for storage...dare I say “ cheap” to a Canadian???
I know this because I have cruised with many of them while diving in the Bahamas and now have many, many Canadian friends!!!!
One Christmas, we were in a group of 36 boats in a large anchorage in the exumas, and we were the only non-Canadian flagged boat!!!!
Best of luck....you will enjoy your adventure!!!

[Bobbob911]

We want to live on the boat in Toronto too, though. In Toronto we have a set of barrier islands downtown that have a small community living on them. It has been a dream of my wife’s to live there but the problem is there is a 30yr wait list to get a property. However there is an abundance of marinas to dock a boat and live aboard for the summer months, and this is the next best thing in our opinion.

We also have property up on Manitoulan island that it will be nice to take a boat to from time to time. When we do that it might be on years when we head south through Chicago instead of AICW.

Now, I know what you’re thinking - just get two boats, problem solved

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bobbob911

We want to live on the boat in Toronto too, though. In Toronto we have a set of barrier islands downtown that have a small community living on them. It has been a dream of my wife’s to live there but the problem is there is a 30yr wait list to get a property. However there is an abundance of marinas to dock a boat and live aboard for the summer months, and this is the next best thing in our opinion.

We also have property up on Manitoulan island that it will be nice to take a boat to from time to time. When we do that it might be on years when we head south through Chicago instead of AICW.

Now, I know what you’re thinking - just get two boats, problem solved

I know you are being mildly sarcastic but run the numbers on what two boats would cost vs fuel/marinas/wear & tear for two 3month trips. You might find that it's not as bad as it sounds on the surface.

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I know you are being mildly sarcastic but run the numbers on what two boats would cost vs fuel/marinas/wear & tear for two 3month trips. You might find that it's not as bad as it sounds on the surface.

Two boats will cost a lot more. For a start you'll have 6 months storage each for 2 boats. Insurance will take a chunk. And the six months each boat not in storage will cost. Cruising down south not too much but in Toronto you'll need a base for the boat. A club or marina. And there's the capital cost plus maintenance.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Vasco

Two boats will cost a lot more. For a start you'll have 6 months storage each for 2 boats. Insurance will take a chunk. And the six months each boat not in storage will cost. Cruising down south not too much but in Toronto you'll need a base for the boat. A club or marina. And there's the capital cost plus maintenance.

Two boats will probably be a little more but if it buys you 6 months in your preferred destinations, it may not be that bad.

Example: We had a 34' Gemini that was around $50k to purchase.
- If the OP is planning on 50miles per day 2 out of 3 days, he's motoring almost exclusively. 6800 miles round trip at 6mpg and $2.50/gal that's $2800/yr.
- Running that hard, I'm going to assume he will just want to tie up most nights running the ICW, so say 4 months at $1.50/ft average is about $6100/yr for the travel time.
- He still has a slip in Toronto, say $3000k for the summer of which he only uses 3 months.
- Let's assume mostly anchored out in the Carribean with an occasional slip...say $1000.
Total: $50k purchase and you will get most of that back on resale plus $12,900/yr

If he bought two boats, one in each area: Now he's got $100k tied up in boats but again on resale, he gets most of that back.
- The transit fuel largely goes away
- Year round including storage, we paid $3200 in Detroit.
- Let's say summer storage is $3000 in the carribean.
- Let's say $2000 for misc slips because he's now got 6 months to spend there.
- Let's say $2000 extra for insurance (about what we paid when only in Michigan for year round insurance)
Total $100k purchase of which you should get most back on resale plus $10,200/yr

The annual cost will probably flip a bit toward the single boat option if you add in an extra bottom paint job every 2-3yrs and some occasional maintenance repairs. This depends greatly on how much DIY you do. We had the Gemini for around 10yrs and only averged $2-3k/yr on this, so the annual expenses would make the overall about a wash.

Obviously, the OP has to put in his assumptions regarding the boat, what it's fuel bill and marina bill will be, is he a DIY guy and how will he use it but there is certainly a case for having two boats if the OP's situation is right.

[Vasco]

All I can say is I've been doing it for 14 years with 2 boats. Before that I did it for eight trips with one boat. The two boat system is definitely preferable and much more enjoyable but I assure you it is not remotely close to one boat as far as costs go. Maybe I need the name of your accountant.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Vasco

All I can say is I've been doing it for 14 years with 2 boats. Before that I did it for eight trips with one boat. The two boat system is definitely preferable and much more enjoyable but I assure you it is not remotely close to one boat as far as costs go. Maybe I need the name of your accountant.

I put up some numbers. No need for an accountant. This is 4th Grade math.

Obviously, it depends on the assumptions made. If you farm out the maintenance and other tasks while assuming a lot of sailing (not motoring) offshore to get back and forth, it will come out differently but it really isn't as big of a difference as you might think at first glance.

[Bobbob911]

I think the main issue I have with your numbers is I can’t see living on anything smaller than a 40’ cat, and I’ll be looking for something 5-10 years old max. So realistically it’s a $200k+ boat not a $50k boat.

I think if we start to get fatigued by the commute the answer will be to take a year off and rent a condo (or travel elsewhere) for the winter months instead.

Or liveaboard in Toronto over the winter - there are a handful of crazies that do that here!