Buying a boat in Panama. Could use some advice, please.

[DolphinZ1]

would you mind sharing your view on following queries beliezesailor?

1. If I had a survey done and wanted to get estimate for getting survey recommendation work completed, which yard on Caribbeean side from which territory (wouldn't have to be Panama) would provide the best combination of yard service, parts availability and economy (to minimize requirement for importing parts) in your view?

2. In your view would sending copy of survey to yard master be adequate to get estimate of cost of doing work? (or would they want to see the boat in their yard before providing an estimate?

3. Are there any local maintenance people you could recommend that would project manage a refit (or is that more likely inviting alot of dissapointment and wasted money & as you mentioned earlier needs owner/interested party/go-fer with full commitment on-site)?

As always - with thanks for any views

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by DolphinZ1

would you mind sharing your view on following queries beliezesailor?

1. If I had a survey done and wanted to get estimate for getting survey recommendation work completed, which yard on Caribbeean side from which territory (wouldn't have to be Panama) would provide the best combination of yard service, parts availability and economy (to minimize requirement for importing parts) in your view?

2. In your view would sending copy of survey to yard master be adequate to get estimate of cost of doing work? (or would they want to see the boat in their yard before providing an estimate?

3. Are there any local maintenance people you could recommend that would project manage a refit (or is that more likely inviting alot of dissapointment and wasted money & as you mentioned earlier needs owner/interested party/go-fer with full commitment on-site)?

As always - with thanks for any views

This kind of an approach barely works in a first world location. It isn't practical for Central America or Panama(which some don't include in CA). If you can't manage the job yourself and be able to judge the quote and quality of the work being done you are just creating a pit of disappointment. Most people doing significant work on their boat in this area have been out cruising for awhile. They either have to do the work here or want to take advantage of some lower cost basic labor. Need someone to grind under your boat for hours in the midday sun, sure. Skilled labor is cheaper, but just not really inexpensive. It is hard to find truly qualified workers, often hard to get them to actually finish a job and bringing in supplies may then go ahead and bust the budget.

Buying a boat at the end of the cruising dream locations can get you a good deal with a lot of cruising equipment onboard. Buying a project boat in these places is not for those who will not be doing most of the work.

Just an opinion, so take it for what its worth,

[DolphinZ1]

Thanks Paul L for input, reality-check always welcome, so there's no shortcuts round blood,sweat, toil and ingenuity required in dealing with getting boat issues dealt with even with boats on land. That reflects earlier comments in the thread - thx

[belizesailor]

In general, I agree with Paul L on this one. The owner really needs to be present and at least function like a general contractor. The yards here wont fullfill that role for you.

When Ive had work done in the yards here, I have arranged everything (subcontractors, parts, supplies...) and been present doing other projects myself and supervising, most of the time. Ive done this not just in Panama, but almost everywhere Ive used a boat yard.

In theory you could hire someone to fill that role, but that is not likely anyone local...and the added costs will quickly erase any financial benefit to buying a distressed boat.

There are really no full service yards here that you can just hand a boat and a survey and expect that to go well. For sure Linton Bay and PanaMarina do not manage refits or any other jobs for owners. They haul boats and provide yard space and thats about it. Shelter Bay will bid on jobs (used to anyway), and then manage them, but their rate will be substabtially higher than subcontracting directly. And, as Paul L points out, even in the USA you need to supervise the yard's work closely.

(Turtle Bay was not mentioned because they are really just a storage marina...and even more inconveniently located than the others in terms of access to goods and services).

[DolphinZ1]

Thank you Belizesailor and PaulL for bursting that fantasy bubble :-) , so I cant get some boat genie to fix up boat and then just show up to shining vessel and sail off into sunset! Well I’d rather be in realist than idealist camp which never get what they want. So it’s blood and sweat or more dinero for boat in good condition without needing lots of work.
It’s still niggling me to get survey done to find out what condition the boat is really in & to know what work needs to be done on it – that’s how much I’m keen on the boat – between survey and hoist it would be approx. $1500 at Turtle Cay. So option I have is to buy a boat for $20k or $30k & have another $30K for refit and have the ideal model boat I want or spend $60k and have model boat that I didn’t originally want but has most of what I want and is better condition to sail away – I found an example as per following link – amazing boat and amazing kit – probably still needs work though.
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1...er-43-3081083/

I’d still rather have the boat I have preference for though but I’ve plenty of time to make decision – it’s still sensible to minimise any unnecessary travel because of pandemic and that’ll probably the case for the foreseeable so I’ve no urgency with decision making.
With a boat left on the hard in Panama Caribbean side – is it dampness and mold that’s the most destructive to boat condition and lightening for electrics – so internally any timber and upholstery deteriorates – what else get’s damaged and deteriorates because of the Panamanian climate?

Thanks for your fore-bear'ance with all the questions and as always with thanks for invaluable insight you provide.

[Paul L]

Just remember the money you put into a boat does not materially increase its resale value. Put 30k into a 20k boat and you'll own a 20k boat that should sell much faster than it did originally.
Get a good deal on an equipped boat, then use it for awhile to figure out what it needs - then spend another 10 or 20k to get it ready to do your style of cruising.

Cruising boats that are not used deteriorate. They do this much faster in the tropics. Anything with plasticizers in them can go bad - belts, port seals, pumps, ..... Mechanical items that are used to rotating and oil. Refrigeration seals leak. Anything with batteries left in. Light fixtures corrode,
I could go on and list most everything on a boat that will go bad after long storage in the tropics,

[DolphinZ1]

amazing info PaulL, the boat I was looking has been on the hard now for about 2 years - does that constitute 'long time' from deterioration perspective or is 'long time' something more like 5 years for serious deterioration to broad list of boat systems and parts you alluded to? Just looking for approximate guidance from boat deterioration perspective what 'long time' means to get idea of extent of refit needed for boat stored in tropics.

As always with thanks
Pat

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by DolphinZ1

amazing info PaulL, the boat I was looking has been on the hard now for about 2 years - does that constitute 'long time' from deterioration perspective or is 'long time' something more like 5 years for serious deterioration to broad list of boat systems and parts you alluded to? Just looking for approximate guidance from boat deterioration perspective what 'long time' means to get idea of extent of refit needed for boat stored in tropics.

As always with thanks
Pat

6 months in the tropics is a long time. You will find issues. What issues is part of the mystery. Some important, like all the elastic in the waist bands of the underwear you left on the boat is limp. Some more mundane like your engine start battery is fried.
I recently returned to our boat after it being in lockdown in SE Asia for almost 7 months. Our boat is a well maintained, offshore cruising boat. After a month of living aboard, a 1,200 mile offshore passage, I can list probably a dozen items that went bad mostly due to excessive heat and no use. It isn't the end of the world, it is just the continual upkeep and expense that you have to do on a cruising boat. My unsubstantiated theory is that when you lay a cruising boat up for a period of time, the same amount of things are going to break as if you used the boat daily. They all just show up in a flurry after you relaunch.

[DolphinZ1]

Originally Posted by Paul L

6 months in the tropics is a long time. You will find issues. What issues is part of the mystery. Some important, like all the elastic in the waist bands of the underwear you left on the boat is limp. Some more mundane like your engine start battery is fried.
I recently returned to our boat after it being in lockdown in SE Asia for almost 7 months. Our boat is a well maintained, offshore cruising boat. After a month of living aboard, a 1,200 mile offshore passage, I can list probably a dozen items that went bad mostly due to excessive heat and no use. It isn't the end of the world, it is just the continual upkeep and expense that you have to do on a cruising boat. My unsubstantiated theory is that when you lay a cruising boat up for a period of time, the same amount of things are going to break as if you used the boat daily. They all just show up in a flurry after you relaunch.

Wowsers - I wasn't expect deterioration in tropics to be that drastic & sudden! I do appreciate marine diesel engines can deteriorate more thru lack of use than being under continuous load. Would you mind sharing what parts failed as I'm really alert to how self-sufficient cruisers have to be in dealing with the myriad of onboard systems - it's like having a house on water with an engine and rigging thrown in, and if you're offshore as you suggest you've got to rely on yourself when things go wrong! Also interested in how you built sufficient knowledge to be confident enough to go offshore - appreciate can have ssb and sat comms and epirb if things get really difficult but it's still big leap to go from coastal to offshore. As for the undies elastic issue- well if you're offshore and find them round your ankles - at least there's limited audience to share blushes :-)

[laird]

Hi guys
Just wanted to add my thanks for this thread ,it's got lots of good and relevant information and advice in it for me

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by DolphinZ1

Thank you Belizesailor and PaulL for bursting that fantasy bubble :-) , so I cant get some boat genie to fix up boat and then just show up to shining vessel and sail off into sunset! Well I’d rather be in realist than idealist camp which never get what they want. So it’s blood and sweat or more dinero for boat in good condition without needing lots of work.

It’s still niggling me to get survey done to find out what condition the boat is really in & to know what work needs to be done on it – that’s how much I’m keen on the boat – between survey and hoist it would be approx. $1500 at Turtle Cay. So option I have is to buy a boat for $20k or $30k & have another $30K for refit and have the ideal model boat I want or spend $60k and have model boat that I didn’t originally want but has most of what I want and is better condition to sail away – I found an example as per following link – amazing boat and amazing kit – probably still needs work though.

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1...er-43-3081083/



I’d still rather have the boat I have preference for though but I’ve plenty of time to make decision – it’s still sensible to minimise any unnecessary travel because of pandemic and that’ll probably the case for the foreseeable so I’ve no urgency with decision making.

With a boat left on the hard in Panama Caribbean side – is it dampness and mold that’s the most destructive to boat condition and lightening for electrics – so internally any timber and upholstery deteriorates – what else get’s damaged and deteriorates because of the Panamanian climate?



Thanks for your fore-bear'ance with all the questions and as always with thanks for invaluable insight you provide.

Unless you know boats well enough to do your own thurough survey, then I always advise to get a survey done...including out of the water, rigging, and sea trial. Note: a lot of surveyors dont go aloft for rigging surverys, you may have to hire somone else for that.

Yes, mold, mildew, and rain water leaks are a constant problem. You need someone to attend to and clean the boat regularly or it will likely get trashed inside. PanaMarina has a good boat cleaning service.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by DolphinZ1

Wowsers - I wasn't expect deterioration in tropics to be that drastic & sudden! I do appreciate marine diesel engines can deteriorate more thru lack of use than being under continuous load. Would you mind sharing what parts failed as I'm really alert to how self-sufficient cruisers have to be in dealing with the myriad of onboard systems - it's like having a house on water with an engine and rigging thrown in, and if you're offshore as you suggest you've got to rely on yourself when things go wrong! Also interested in how you built sufficient knowledge to be confident enough to go offshore - appreciate can have ssb and sat comms and epirb if things get really difficult but it's still big leap to go from coastal to offshore. As for the undies elastic issue- well if you're offshore and find them round your ankles - at least there's limited audience to share blushes :-)

Actually, marine diesels hold up pretty well to extened lack of use. Ive been away from my boat for a solid year now, due to COVID, and I dont expect engine problems to be on my list of disasters to deal with soon. I have had someone tending to the boat, including cleaning the interior every 2 weeks, so I expect minimal mold/mildew issues.

By contrast I once had someone lie to me about caring for the boat and it went a whole off season (6 months) with zero cleaning. It was a disaster...heavy mold/mildew in the interior so extreme it ate some of the upohlstery/bedding, small electronics destroyed, etc. We spent a solid month getting the boat back in habitable condition.

On my return this season, I expect maybe some small electronics issues, dirty sails, probably some mold/mildew in out of the way areas likely some of it heavy, wood work damage, corroded hinges/locks, maybe some corroded wire splices, new oeaks in hatches, significant water maker maintenance (expect I will need to replace the membrane), plus all the stuff that needed attention before lock down...

[DolphinZ1]

yes, agree with that laird, some very experienced and knowledge'able sailors providing sage advice to help avoid myriad of pitfalls for novices interested in spending time getting a boat for cruising- information is worth it's weight in gold.

Thanks Belizesailor re survey guidance which was already my thinking - I was wondering if surveys and detail provided are similar for Central America as in N.America? Are there any known surveyors that would be recommended in Panama?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by DolphinZ1

yes, agree with that laird, some very experienced and knowledge'able sailors providing sage advice to help avoid myriad of pitfalls for novices interested in spending time getting a boat for cruising- information is worth it's weight in gold.



Thanks Belizesailor re survey guidance which was already my thinking - I was wondering if surveys and detail provided are similar for Central America as in N.America? Are there any known surveyors that would be recommended in Panama?

Survey details are generally the same since surveyors are liscenced by just a few organizations.

[Love2 boat]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Survey details are generally the same since surveyors are liscenced by just a few organizations.

I understand why you say that but I disagree with the real world results.



I have done surveys in Massachusetts and Key West. The results were vastly different. Although both were ok for my needs - the surveyor in Mass had a plastic hammer and moisture meter - in Key Largo it was visual only . Both were ABYC certified.


So my recommendation is to ask questions before you hire a surveyor.
YMMV and good luck.