carribean vs the other side

[belizesailor]

Snotty post, but...

You might try "the other side" of the Carib...very different than the more geographically constrained view of the Carib being only the eastern edge of it.

[Training Wheels]

I drink my rum. Period.

[Zephyrcat229]

Hey I totally get it!
Sometimes an area & a person don't get on! God knows I've had similar experiences sometimes/wheres.

Where are you coming from & heading toward?

[Jubilee39]

Spent 10 years in Carib, Last 5 years Philipines SE Asia. Sailing and food choices better in Carib but SEA cheaper except when you deal with expats from US, OZ, or S Africa. I prefer Carib

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1;2176435z

Well I recommend that you ............................................. Leave!

How dare you steal what I was going to say!! You often do that! I've noticed. Don't think i dont watch the forum. I do! I watch YOU stealing my thoughts before i had them like some cheap George Orwell novel. It better stop. OK?

Originally Posted by wedivebc

If you don't like most of the people you meet, it might not be them...

Now, don't you start up like SailorBoy1!!


Mark

[Dulcesuenos]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

How dare you steal what I was going to say!! You often do that! I've noticed. Don't think i dont watch the forum. I do! I watch YOU stealing my thoughts before i had them like some cheap George Orwell novel. It better stop. OK?



Now, don't you start up like SailorBoy1!!


Mark

You should put on your tinfoil hat before going on CF, it really cuts down on this.
[IMG] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...471c1b4257.jpg /IMG]

Sent from my PLT1077G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

In the carribean I think these same people like it maybe because they enjoy enslaving the locals with their money by paying them $5 to do things for them like bring them water or take their trash. This is similar to slavery by reinforcing that they are not on an equal level.

This is to such an extent that some local people "boat boys" survive off this, and make it their "occupation" They now expect all foreigners to have money to pay them for services. Other locals often become hostile if you decide to walk down the beach with empty pockets.

So you don't like it if cruisers give money to the local people, even if it is just a minor job that they could do themselves. At least they are helping the local economy, helping the boat boys feed their family.

and as for this comment

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

This is similar to slavery by reinforcing that they are not on an equal level.

There is no one worse than a snob who thinks they are better than other people because the others are not doing it hard.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

You should put on your tinfoil hat before going on CF, it really cuts down on this.
[IMG] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...471c1b4257.jpg [/IMG]

Whenever i see that photo i feel so sorry for the cat. The expression on its face is priceless.

[Larry Florida]

Originally Posted by Jubilee39

Spent 10 years in Carib, Last 5 years Philipines SE Asia. Sailing and food choices better in Carib but SEA cheaper except when you deal with expats from US, OZ, or S Africa. I prefer Carib

Must be some great food in Carib. Where is the best?

Philippine food aside, SEA food is tasty and plentyfull.

[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

So you complain about people "enslaving the locals" but you rely on someone else's hard work to provide you with food for free? Or did you barter for the solar panel etc?.... hmm interesting indeed😉.
Are you Anti fiberglass, petrol, metal, pretty much anything modern?

Sent from my PLT1077G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Thats what I was thinking as I read this post. And to be upset when someone offers to pay another for services...Im not sure I get it.

Frienship with others can often result in sharing resources. Im all for that but its a fine line to tread. Cultural differences can create scenarios where the recipient is not aware of the impact they are making. In the Hopi culre there are no thoughts of "mine", goods are shared in the tribe. This works well if you are an insider, you will have the opportunity to give back. But for foreigners, they iften take without realizing what they do. Its very easy for foreigners to beggar a community or individual misunderstanding the culture.

As for wages for services, the world is different now. Young men and women can not rely on the huter / fisher, gather life of the past. Again another fine line. We come in and change their world and expect everyone and their lifestyles to remain in the stone age. Just by being there we change the culture and environment. But the stone age culture will not come back and we cant expect it to.
Should we really codemn a young man who wants to earn money to buy things he cannot trade for and expect him to fish for food that is increasingly more difficult to get? Why?
Is this really about what is best for the put apon culture?

[NahanniV]

It's been ten years since I was there, but I also had a similar experience.

It was difficult to have any kind of meaningful interaction with the local people on most of the islands we visited, unless you were paying.

There were exceptions: Dominica was much less touristy, and once the boat boys figured out that you didn't have any money they left you alone. Montserrat, less tourism due to the volcano at the time. Saba.

We found that getting to know the locals generally required us to stay in one place for at least three weeks. After that people seemed to warm up to us.

Despite the tourism, we enjoyed the Caribbean, perfect weather, great easy sailing, fantastic snorkeling and hiking.

Cheers,
JM.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

It is good to visit the carribean to put things in perspective. This allows me to appreciate the other side more. What I can't understand is why there are so many people sailing here and so few over there SNIP

The biggest factor for me is the local people. In the carribean I don't like most of the people I met, but in indonesia I really did. SNIP

In the carribean I think these same people like it maybe because they enjoy enslaving the locals with their money by paying them $5 to do things for them like bring them water or take their trash. This is similar to slavery by reinforcing that they are not on an equal level. SNIP

In indonesia and vanuatu, the local people understand and respect me for being engine free. Many people there told me it was a good thing and they were happy to see this. In the carribean, the local people tell me that I am wrong for not having this evil and should install a "6hp outboard". This is not one person on one island, but 4 different people on 3 different islands. For this reason I was given only 7 days visa in st vincent by the immigration in chateubellair and denied extension in bequia. I was forced to miss sailing the grenadines.

Just take people as you find them. Don't waste your time with the unfriendly ones. There maybe proportionately less friendliness from the locals than elsewhere, but there are still a lot of nice locals to befriend.

I don't agree that paying the locals as you describe is a form of slavery. Pretty much all money coming from the tourists is vastly more than the locals pay each other. It is they who are taking advantage of us. You have it upside down. And talking of slavery, your ancestors are partly to blame, they, the slave traders have so damaged the black collective consciousness that the wound may never heal fully.

As to the reaction of to your lack of funds. People everywhere give more respect to those who are smartly presented. Don't provoke the authorities. They are sometimes sensitive to people entering without enough money to stay and potentially giving the country the problem of repatriating them at the island's expense. They also don't want vagrants on their smart tourist beaches maybe begging or sleeping rough. Just put on a clean stiff collar shirt with epaulets and a 'captain' badge and wear a peaked cap with lots of gold braid when you visit customs. I guarantee you will have no problems.

Also, if you answer the question when walking down the beach - 'wanna rent a jet-ski' with 'no I have no money' they will think you are a liar and that you are insulting them by thinking they are stupid enough to believe such a lie. After all, it takes many hundred $ to fly in and $hundreds per day just to live there for 99% of tourists. A polite, clear, firm, unambiguous 'no thank you' with a smile works every time for me.

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

Thats what I was thinking as I read this post. And to be upset when someone offers to pay another for services...Im not sure I get it.

strong left wing idea in some countries (Australia) that its wrong to hire labor, help etc. its much more politically correct to do it yourself as its more egalitarian.
Of course, if the person has an actual buisness - truck with a name on the side - then its OK.

I would be called a racist and a lazy snob if I paid an Aboriginal to clean up the garden. But if he had an actual comapany name and uniform it would be fine thats Australia for you!

Cruising there is some difficulties... Some of those kids you give the trash to just chuck it on the street as soon as your back is turned.
Kids now EXPECT you to pay them $5 to look after your dinghy at the dinghy dock. Ie protection extortion because a myriad of cruisers have done it before - "Arthur, its only $5 and he looks poor". Stuff me, but $5 per day over a year is a **** load of money for many cruisers!!!

So I see both sides .

[DMCantor]

I blame cruise ships for many of the problems in the Caribbean. On the islands that depend heavily on cruise ship tourism (one example: St. Kitts), the relationship between visitors and locals seems to be all about money: how to get it out of your pocket and into theirs. On islands with less cruise-ship focus, there's a real chance to make connections.

We have so often experienced lovely towns suddenly turn really ugly when the cruise ship berths. And the passengers seem so lost and forlorn. Where are we? Why are we here?

Sigh.

[Sea Dreaming]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

strong left wing idea in some countries (Australia) that its wrong to hire labor, help etc. its much more politically correct to do it yourself as its more egalitarian.
Of course, if the person has an actual buisness - truck with a name on the side - then its OK.

I would be called a racist and a lazy snob if I paid an Aboriginal to clean up the garden. But if he had an actual comapany name and uniform it would be fine thats Australia for you!

Cruising there is some difficulties... Some of those kids you give the trash to just chuck it on the street as soon as your back is turned.
Kids now EXPECT you to pay them $5 to look after your dinghy at the dinghy dock. Ie protection extortion because a myriad of cruisers have done it before - "Arthur, its only $5 and he looks poor". Stuff me, but $5 per day over a year is a **** load of money for many cruisers!!!

So I see both sides .

Yes, Americans have the same attitude too. Im taking my own habits on a case by case basis. But its really a catch 22. Ever since the first explorers and missionaries there have been irreversible changes to native cultures. We are responsible for the loss of culture. But 200 + years on we can not force the genii back into the bottle to asuage our conscience. It would be lovely if native peoples everywhere could persue the sustaining life they have historically led. But natural resources are now stressed. Is forcing native people to lead this life in a natural world that can no longer truely sustain them really the best thing? Or is this ideal really forcing people into a different kind of poverty? Who are we to decide anyway? Thats awfully arrogant.