Visit our Popular Forums

**michaeld** · 25-09-2022, 14:32

I live in South Florida. We have some great sailing and beautiful water/weather year round. There are 6.5 million people living in Palm Beach, Broward, and Miami-Dade counties combined. Nearly all waterfront properties are privately owned. Shore access is extremely limited. Dinghy docks are few and far between. Marinas are premium priced. Biscayne Bay and the Keys are your best bet for "cruising". PM me for local knowledge.

ka4wja · 25-09-2022, 14:44

First off...Chuto, thanks for the compliment, but to be clear I never knew any other way....this is how I was raised and how I live my life....I don't judge others, and try not to argue about the BS in life....

Heck, no matter what boat (or no boat) some of us have, no matter where we are, etc. etc., I suspect that we all here have it better than 99% of the rest of the people on this planet, so why complain.

~~~~~~

Okay....now onto something a tiny bit controversial?

We all have our opinions, hopefully based on our own experiences....so, I won't argue / criticize.
Although, I would like to add a few further comments?

1) It appears Lady Lane was frustrated with their experiences, and wished to let us all know....no worries here.

And, it seemed to me that their frustrating experiences were due, in part, to they not having some good info....and, they specifically asked: "if you people still insist this isn't the case then really I want to know".....so, myself and others provided that good information, and did not tell them to leave Florida, or say they were in the wrong place, nor try to pile onto the controversary, etc...nope, we actually tried to help them, just like all good mariners would do!
And Lady Lane seems to have other (more important) matters to spend their time on these last 5 days...no worries here.

I still have hope that they will read this good info and enjoy the rest of their cruising!

2) Again, we all have our own opinions....but sometimes they are formed by inaccurate info?
{My personal opinion is....no this will not end with some "paying more"....but rather when some actually learn to be better people! Okay, maybe I'm naïve, but that's my opinion....take it or leave it!}

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

The issue would end if the complaining adjacent land owners were made to pay the tax liability on their imputed ownership of the ICW bottom. Right now, they get the cake and table privileges.

Nicholson58, I'm wondering if you're aware that most "waterfront property" owners in Florida actually like boats and boaters?
And, while there are a-holes everywhere (including on Florida's waterfront!), these do not make up the majority of Floridians!

Just saying, there are some nice folk here, too.

Also, are you aware of how much property tax is paid by waterfront land owners in Florida?

Now, I'm not complaining nor am I gonna' get into a political (nor "fairness") argument here, just giving a bit of info here....
Yes, most of us dislike paying taxes, but we usually realize it is the price we pay for our "organized society"....
And, as Florida doesn't have an income tax....and although it makes up ~ 80% of STATE revenue, the state sales tax is just 6%.....so, addition state revenue comes from our property taxes (as well as other "fees", such as real estate fees, etc.)...
As well as almost all of local / county revenue coming from property taxes....
So, again, not complaining, just stating some facts, that property taxes in Florida are not low....and in comparison to other US locales, property taxes in S. Florida are actually quite high. (again, not complaining, just lettin' ya' know)

To give you a real-world, personal example:
My Mom's annual property taxes on her waterfront home in S. Florida, are higher than (or about the same as) my friend's total 12 months of mortgage payments on her $200k house in Orlando....(my property taxes on my own house in central Florida dozens and dozens of miles from the waterfront, are actually not bad!)
Please understand this....again, not complaining, but letting you know that many waterfront property owners are paying....(certainly they do not "own" the water, but just as certainly they're are paying a decent price [property tax] for their privilege...)

Of course, there are also many, many waterfront property owners that must pay the State-of-Florida a "submerged-land-lease" fee, annually, for their use of that "submerged land" that is State property, and that most others think is "free" and those others use it for free...

And, I personally pay for her State-of-Florida "submerged-land-lease", annually every year....now it ain't nearly as outrageous as her property taxes, but I maintain the dock for my boat, so I figure it's fair to pay her submerged-land-lease.

This submerged-land-lease is the State's way of getting some additional revenue from waterfront property owners who use the water directly, or erect docks or other structures (boat houses, etc....which also have property taxes assessed on), and as such, even we with small private docks for our own boats also pay the state directly for the privilege of having our cake....and, are also subject to regular inspections from Florida DEP (Dept of Environmental Protection), etc...

So, in my opinion most of Florida's waterfront property owners actually do pay for their cake and table.

And, as I wrote above....there are a-holes everywhere...not just those on the waterfront!

So, again Nicholson, how much is "fair" to you? Perhaps you were aware of all this, but I suspect not...so, you're welcome.

3) Thirdly....and, most importantly....I'm truly sorry that MerryDolphin has had these unfortunate experiences! And, as a fellow Floridian, I hope you realize that the guy standing on his seawall yelling he's going to "call the cops", does not represent the majority here!

Quote:

Originally Posted by merrydolphin

In Fl. You can anchor behind a what use to be about a 3-400K dollar home and the owner comes out to his sea wall, shoots you a bird and says “I.m calling the cops!”

With ~ 22 - 23 million, Florida has the 3rd largest population in the US.....has 8346 miles of shoreline (according to NOAA), second only to Alaska....and more than 1350 miles of ocean coastline....and, has ~ 4500 islands (larger than 10 acres) and ~ 7700 lakes (larger than 10 acres)....and, almost ONE Million registered boats (987, 769 as of 2021)!
Yep, that's a LOT of boats! The highest number of registered boats in the US! (that's more boats than people in six US States....more than people in WY, or VT, or DC, or AK, or ND, or SD, etc.!)

{I'm not sure what the total acreage of "waterfront property" is, but I suspect it's a lot!....and therefore there are a lot of "waterfront property owners", some are super nice an helpful and some are a-holes...}

The point I'm trying to highlight is....sure there are more a-holes in our world now than when we were growing up, but the majority of folks are still pleasant and helpful....or as long as they're not destroying the environment (or adversely impeding on another's freedom) at least most are pleasant enough to leave their fellow human beings alone to live their lives as they desire....

We all need to remember the Golden Rule: "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you."
Perhaps just a bit more of leading by example would be good?
{and, yes....many boats at anchor unfortunately do dump their sewage in our waterways.....the same waterways that my neighbors water-ski in, and the same waterways that I swim/dive in, etc....so, please understand that there are "rules" that need to be adhered-to....those that don't / didn't have ruined it for the rest...this isn't 1965 anymore, with a few dozen private boats with head in them, in Florida waters at any one time....we now have 100's of thousands!}

Anyway, that's what I'm doing....who knows, maybe it'll catch on!

Okay, that's enough from me on this subject, for now...

Fair winds and 73,
John

Sailor Sailor · 25-09-2022, 15:23

How surprising she left the discussion.

The OP evidences black and white, unconditional, all or nothing thinking, with numerous false assumptions, inflamatory accusations, false beliefs about the motivations of others, and erroneous information. I think she needs more than a free anchorage with dinghy access.

There is a legitimate legal issue regarding freedom of navigation vs. private property rights in the U.S., but that is not what this is really about. This is about someone's outrage from a sense of entitlement.

Here I parsed it for you with her actual verbiage - this is not persuasive writing BTW:

Quote:

Originally Posted by SV Lady Lena

... local and state politicians have been raging war against the poor and lower working class!...

problem lies solely with the greedy politicians that created heaping mounds of red tape to clear the water ways of these wasted vessels....

Florida's economy in the dumps...

... people can no longer afford to live in their traditional land based homes

.. rather than working with those local communities and new live aboard folks they would rather starve them from every access point to land. It doesn't take a genius to see where this is leading!

...every place that was convenient to stop anchor and access land...n has been completely cut off by threatening laws and ordinances!

...how many millions of dollars was spent trying to implement all this to harass these poor people

...They have taken the fun and challenge out of cruising!

...new laws are coming into affect on that as well-police harassment included!

...It's clear they don't want you, your family, your boat or your money! It's their loss I'll take my money elsewhere!

Boatyarddog · 25-09-2022, 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

Do you think the people doing this care about laws, responsibility and liability?

No, im sure they dont!

My point is if people complain about it but do nothing about it, even though they have law on their side.

Then they are enabling it.
And, have little reason to complain.
Thats how it works

Boatyarddog

Elie · 26-09-2022, 06:57

Many Americans can't afford rental cost that went trough the roof in most cities. We can observe everywhere with tents villages sprouting all around. Homeless are a plague and in America, and thank to the capitalist system at its radical extreme logic that prevail in general in the USA, more and more persons are left without capacities to survive in this shamefull situation.
And local autorities since welfare support is so limited, only option is trying to get rid of the problem by pushing the needy littarally out. Strange country so rich where where the have not are literally abandonned without little choice. Living abord is one solution for the needy, and autorities in Florida (and elsewhere ) push legislation to eliminate the needy out of their jurisdiction for practical budget logic.

GreenWave · 26-09-2022, 07:51

Taking care of your “home” and respecting your neighbors applies regardless of what type of home you live in. If you cannot do that or afford that then you should make other arrangements. While we may all want to live in the nice parts with great access to everyone and everything we cannot all afford that. That’s life.

Boatyarddog · 26-09-2022, 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenWave

Taking care of your “home” and respecting your neighbors applies regardless of what type of home you live in. If you cannot do that or afford that then you should make other arrangements. While we may all want to live in the nice parts with great access to everyone and everything we cannot all afford that. That’s life.

That isn't just "life"!
There are many types of sailors, boaters, recreational enthusiasts.

Money is politics, politics and money hamper many people's right to R&R.

Anchoring out isn't easy.
Mooring balls have fees, as well marinas.
Fuel, food.

Sailing and the enjoyment of boating is bullied by the capitalists that think they can own the water too.

It's expensive enough just to maintain a vessel safely.
I don't blame folks for trying to save a buck to enjoy their lives, more fully.

Those at the lower end of expenses, provide increased space for others to spend their money at the docks they love so much, and on moorings.
If their not causing any "real problems"
Leave them be.
Boatyarddog

Boatyarddog · 26-09-2022, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elie

Many Americans can't afford rental cost that went trough the roof in most cities. We can observe everywhere with tents villages sprouting all around. Homeless are a plague and in America, and thank to the capitalist system at its radical extreme logic that prevail in general in the USA, more and more persons are left without capacities to survive in this shamefull situation.
And local autorities since welfare support is so limited, only option is trying to get rid of the problem by pushing the needy littarally out. Strange country so rich where where the have not are literally abandonned without little choice. Living abord is one solution for the needy, and autorities in Florida (and elsewhere ) push legislation to eliminate the needy out of their jurisdiction for practical budget logic.

Agreed, with 1 exception.

Homeless are not a Plague, HOMELESSNESS is the Plague!
The homeless are victims of homelessness.

Elitism is the Cause!
Boatyarddog

GreenWave · 26-09-2022, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

That isn't just "life"!
There are many types of sailors, boaters, recreational enthusiasts.

Money is politics, politics and money hamper many people's right to R&R.

Anchoring out isn't easy.
Mooring balls have fees, as well marinas.
Fuel, food.

Sailing and the enjoyment of boating is bullied by the capitalists that think they can own the water too.

It's expensive enough just to maintain a vessel safely.
I don't blame folks for trying to save a buck to enjoy their lives, more fully.

Those at the lower end of expenses, provide increased space for others to spend their money at the docks they love so much, and on moorings.
If their not causing any "real problems"
Leave them be.
Boatyarddog

The points I wanted to make were/are-
1) If you live on a boat you should take care of it just like a land-based home. If you can do neither then you don't deserve the public sentiment and assistance. It costs nthing to pick up trash in your yard - for example.
2) I fundamentally do not believe in hand outs from the government. That isn't elitist it is just a personal view (as in I am not a socialist).

smj · 26-09-2022, 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenWave

The points I wanted to make were/are-
1) If you live on a boat you should take care of it just like a land-based home. If you can do neither then you don't deserve the public sentiment and assistance. It costs nthing to pick up trash in your yard - for example.
2) I fundamentally do not believe in hand outs from the government. That isn't elitist it is just a personal view (as in I am not a socialist).

In socialist countries I don’t believe it’s considered a “hand out” as it’s paid for by the peoples taxes.

goboatingnow · 26-09-2022, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

In socialist countries I don’t believe it’s considered a “hand out” as it’s paid for by the peoples taxes.

Any system that has any sort of large homelessness criss that results in semi derelict boat liveaboards needs to seriously address social housing. If it’s genuinely seen ( boats ) as a “ viable” option for the poor that’s a terrible indictment

Make available subsidised housing for the poor and the live aboard anchorage issue will disappear. .

House the poor.

smj · 26-09-2022, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Any system that has any sort of large homelessness criss that results in semi derelict boat liveaboards needs to seriously address social housing. If it’s genuinely seen ( boats ) as a “ viable” option for the poor that’s a terrible indictment

Make available subsidised housing for the poor and the live aboard anchorage issue will disappear. .

House the poor.

Absolutely agree

GreenWave · 26-09-2022, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

Absolutely agree

As do I with the right approach.

Boatyarddog · 26-09-2022, 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenWave

The points I wanted to make were/are-
1) If you live on a boat you should take care of it just like a land-based home. If you can do neither then you don't deserve the public sentiment and assistance. It costs nthing to pick up trash in your yard - for example.
2) I fundamentally do not believe in hand outs from the government. That isn't elitist it is just a personal view (as in I am not a socialist).

I'm willing to assume you received a stimulus check/s.
And cashed it.
And, you receive SS every month.

These are not "socialist" handouts.
They are for all that quality under guidelines.

No matter what the Deniers pronounce.

Your also okay with TAX breaks too most assuredly, these are "handouts" too.

Everyone right now needs some help.
This is not The present Administrations fault either.

As there have been many accomplishments in presidential acts put forth to combat some of the Pandemic results, and attacks on our environment.

Be kind to others, everyone serves a purpose.
You MAY benefit from those you condemn.
When they come to help without judgements of your wealth.
Boatyarddog